[LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

Read the arguments on potable public water supplies. You're missing the forest per the trees.

Also, Comcast offers full wifi services. The dmarc at the property line and right of way is artificial. 

The economics is a 100gb/s sfp. Not 2g  or 6g. I'm asking for a roof of shingles vs a thatch roof. Many may laugh until they realize we're talking about real life issues. A 100Gb/s link drives queues to empty. Compute moves to speed of causality. That's the best we can do today and it'll be the best done in 50 or 100 years from now, assuming the optics are pluggable.

We need to stop conflating capacity with latency. Doing so is a basic engineering flaw.

The fiber has basically infinite capacity.  Where it ends, where it starts and who gets to decide on the optics is a non trivial problem. And that choice matters. But hey, many men think it's their womb too, which is no longer funny.

I want 6 Gbs optics. You laugh. Comcast says I can't have it. Why am I not in charge of this choice?

Bob


On Mar 25, 2023, 3:50 PM, at 3:50 PM, dan <dandenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm not quite following on this.  It's really not comcast's
>responsibility
>to do maintenance on old cables etc.  Once installed, those are
>fixtures
>and the responsibility of the building owner.    Comcast etc are only
>pulling wire in to enable their primary business of selling voice, tv,
>and
>data.  All of these other pieces are clearly the responsibility of the
>property owner to install.  Trying to put this sort of thing on an ISP
>would dramatically increase the cost of delivering services.
>
>I read the chat log and I would have closed it too.  An HOA is a
>business
>in legal terms. for profit or non-profit, but still a business.  The
>cost
>to bring all products to every home and business would dramatically
>increase the average cost of services.  The CSR offered a 2Gbit service
>and
>you replied that you want the lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for
>your
>fire alarm?  Firstly, why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the
>6Gbit, and secondly how much data do you think a fire alarm uses?  As
>the
>CSR I would be telling jokes about you with my co-workers.  I'm not
>meaning
>to be too antagonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you
>think?  You're getting jostled around because you are demanding a
>service
>they don't offer at the address.  You could have taken the 2Gbit plan
>offer
>and been installed in a few days and still had a product that is
>literally
>1000x more than your fire circuit needs.  The moment you started in on
>the
>Boston fire I'd have been done.   Irrelevant and sensationalist.  Fire
>alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired telephone line or a
>redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbit to prevent
>everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch teams
>mid-read.
>
>"I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me to someone who
>does" is
>the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equivalent for an ISP's CSR
>to
>hear.
>
>I could continue with how absurd a lot of what has been said is but I
>don't
>want kicked out of the group for being unfriendly so I'll let it be.
>
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04 PM Robert McMahon
><rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the
>days of
>> dry wire sold by the RBOCs.
>>
>> I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our
>> building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The
>other
>> $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in
>parts,
>> $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the
>expenses.
>> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to
>insurance
>> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>>
>> A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with
>> Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the
>egress
>> escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've
>basically
>> priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>>
>> We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of
>> "expense bloat."
>>
>> Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe
>> water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it
>claimed
>> alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing
>clean
>> and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free
>water
>> over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even
>for
>> their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.
>>
>> It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health
>was
>> tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because
>> pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public
>water
>> would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire
>chief was
>> put in charge. See Ties That Bind
>>
>> https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/
>>
>> Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet.
>It's
>> taken for granted.
>>
>> I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks.
>> They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public
>safety
>> elements engaged too.
>>
>> Bob
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>>> starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms
>had a
>>> dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm
>station.
>>> This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>>> notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse
>polarity
>>> to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off
>the
>>> boiler in the building.
>>>
>>> Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to
>their
>>> main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This
>would
>>> not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they
>still have
>>> all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>>>
>>> I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>>> communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>>> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant
>power for
>>> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here
>due
>>> to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone
>boxes
>>> that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and
>plug in a
>>> generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we
>just
>>> had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise
>every
>>> home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a
>4-hour
>>> SLA.
>>>
>>> The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high
>prices
>>> this required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of
>using the
>>> legacy telco for telephony.
>>>
>>
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