[Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board
Bob McMahon
bob.mcmahon at broadcom.com
Tue Jul 6 18:05:11 EDT 2021
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Not a fixed butler matrix but a
device with solid state, programmable, phase shifters, 0 - 360 degrees.
It's a way to create multiple phy channels and affect and vary the off
diagonal elements of a MIMO H-matrix using conducted parts. Then
automation software can have more robust RF MIMO test scenarios that are
reproducible.
https://web.stanford.edu/~dntse/Chapters_PDF/Fundamentals_Wireless_Communication_chapter7.pdf
Bob
On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 2:24 PM Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com> wrote:
> We tried adding in an external butler matrix in the past, but could not
> notice any useful difference. Possibly
> we didn't have the right use case.
>
> Typically we are competitive on price for full testing solutions, but you
> can get stand-alone attenuators
> cheaper from specialized vendors. Happy to discuss pricing offlist if you
> wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On 7/6/21 1:43 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
> > The four part attenuator part would be more interesting to me if it also
> had a solid state phase shifters. This allows for testing 2x2 MIMO testing
> per
> > affecting the spatial stream eigen vectors/values.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > PS. The price per port isn't competitive. Probably a good idea to survey
> the market competition.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 6:46 AM Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com
> <mailto:greearb at candelatech.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am interested to hear wish lists for network testing features. We
> make test equipment, supporting lots
> > of wifi stations and a distributed architecture, with built-in udp,
> tcp, ipv6, http, ... protocols,
> > and open to creating/improving some of our automated tests.
> >
> > I know Dave has some test scripts already, so I'm not necessarily
> looking to reimplement that,
> > but more fishing for other/new ideas.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ben
> >
> > On 7/2/21 4:28 PM, Bob McMahon wrote:
> > > I think we need the language of math here. It seems like the
> network power metric, introduced by Kleinrock and Jaffe in the late 70s, is
> something useful.
> > > Effective end/end queue depths per Little's law also seems
> useful. Both are available in iperf 2 from a test perspective. Repurposing
> test techniques to
> > actual
> > > traffic could be useful. Hence the question around what exact
> telemetry is useful to apps making socket write() and read() calls.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:07 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com
> <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com> <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:
> dave.taht at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > In terms of trying to find "Quality" I have tried to
> encourage folk to
> > > both read "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"[0], and
> Deming's
> > > work on "total quality management".
> > >
> > > My own slice at this network, computer and lifestyle "issue"
> is aiming
> > > for "imperceptible latency" in all things. [1]. There's a lot
> of
> > > fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing
> delay, but
> > > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user
> really needs
> > > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents.
> > >
> > > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor to
> "zen...",
> > > lila, which is in part about what happens when an engineer
> hits an
> > > insoluble problem.
> > > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/ <
> https://www.internetsociety.org/events/latency2013/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 6:16 PM David P. Reed <
> dpreed at deepplum.com <mailto:dpreed at deepplum.com> <mailto:
> dpreed at deepplum.com
> > <mailto:dpreed at deepplum.com>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are
> willing to consider that quality of user experience has little to do with
> signalling rate at the
> > > physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network
> quality" suggests that they REALLY, REALLY don't understand the Internet
> isn't the
> > hardware or
> > > the routers or even the routing algorithms *to its users*.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > By ignoring the diversity of applications now and in the
> future, and the fact that we DON'T KNOW what will be coming up, this
> conference will
> > likely fall
> > > into the usual trap that net-heads fall into - optimizing for
> some imaginary reality that doesn't exist, and in fact will probably never
> be what users
> > > actually will do given the chance.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I saw this issue in 1976 in the group developing the
> original Internet protocols - a desire to put *into the network* special
> tricks to optimize ASR33
> > > logins to remote computers from terminal concentrators (aka
> remote login), bulk file transfers between file systems on different
> time-sharing
> > systems, and
> > > "sessions" (virtual circuits) that required logins. And then
> trying to exploit underlying "multicast" by building it into the IP layer,
> because someone
> > > thought that TV broadcast would be the dominant application.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, to think of "quality" as something that can be
> "provided" by "the network" misses the entire point of "end-to-end argument
> in system design".
> > > Quality is not a property defined or created by The Network.
> If you want to talk about Quality, you need to talk about users - all the
> users at all
> > times,
> > > now and into the future, and that's something you can't do if
> you don't bother to include current and future users talking about what
> they might
> > expect to
> > > experience that they don't experience.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There was much fighting back in 1976 that basically
> involved "network experts" saying that the network was the place to "solve"
> such issues as
> > quality,
> > > so applications could avoid having to solve such issues.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What some of us managed to do was to argue that you can't
> "solve" such issues. All you can do is provide a framework that enables
> different uses to
> > > *cooperate* in some way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which is why the Internet drops packets rather than
> queueing them, and why diffserv cannot work.
> > > >
> > > > (I know the latter is conftroversial, but at the moment,
> ALL of diffserv attempts to talk about end-to-end applicaiton specific
> metrics, but
> > never, ever
> > > explains what the diffserv control points actually do w.r.t.
> what the IP layer can actually control. So it is meaningless - another
> violation of the
> > > so-called end-to-end principle).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Networks are about getting packets from here to there,
> multiplexing the underlying resources. That's it. Quality is a whole
> different thing.
> > Quality can
> > > be improved by end-to-end approaches, if the underlying
> network provides some kind of thing that actually creates a way for
> end-to-end applications to
> > > affect queueing and routing decisions, and more importantly
> getting "telemetry" from the network regarding what is actually going on
> with the other
> > > end-to-end users sharing the infrastructure.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This conference won't talk about it this way. So don't
> waste your time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 8:12pm, "Dave Taht" <
> dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com> <mailto:
> dave.taht at gmail.com
> > <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>>> said:
> > > >
> > > > > The program committee members are *amazing*. Perhaps,
> finally, we can
> > > > > move the bar for the internet's quality metrics past
> endless, blind
> > > > > repetitions of speedtest.
> > > > >
> > > > > For complete details, please see:
> > > > >
> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/ <
> https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/network-quality/>
> > > > >
> > > > > Submissions Due: Monday 2nd August 2021, midnight AOE
> (Anywhere On Earth)
> > > > > Invitations Issued by: Monday 16th August 2021
> > > > >
> > > > > Workshop Date: This will be a virtual workshop, spread
> over three days:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Tue 14th September 2021
> > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Wed 15th September 2021
> > > > > 1400-1800 UTC Thu 16th September 2021
> > > > >
> > > > > Workshop co-chairs: Wes Hardaker, Evgeny Khorov, Omer
> Shapira
> > > > >
> > > > > The Program Committee members:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jari Arkko, Olivier Bonaventure, Vint Cerf, Stuart
> Cheshire, Sam
> > > > > Crowford, Nick Feamster, Jim Gettys, Toke
> Hoiland-Jorgensen, Geoff
> > > > > Huston, Cullen Jennings, Katarzyna Kosek-Szott, Mirja
> Kuehlewind,
> > > > > Jason Livingood, Matt Mathias, Randall Meyer, Kathleen
> Nichols,
> > > > > Christoph Paasch, Tommy Pauly, Greg White, Keith
> Winstein.
> > > > >
> > > > > Send Submissions to: network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org
> <mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org>
> > <mailto:network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org <mailto:
> network-quality-workshop-pc at iab.org>>.
> > > > >
> > > > > Position papers from academia, industry, the open source
> community and
> > > > > others that focus on measurements, experiences,
> observations and
> > > > > advice for the future are welcome. Papers that reflect
> experience
> > > > > based on deployed services are especially welcome. The
> organizers
> > > > > understand that specific actions taken by operators are
> unlikely to be
> > > > > discussed in detail, so papers discussing general
> categories of
> > > > > actions and issues without naming specific technologies,
> products, or
> > > > > other players in the ecosystem are expected. Papers
> should not focus
> > > > > on specific protocol solutions.
> > > > >
> > > > > The workshop will be by invitation only. Those wishing
> to attend
> > > > > should submit a position paper to the address above; it
> may take the
> > > > > form of an Internet-Draft.
> > > > >
> > > > > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be
> published on the
> > > > > workshop website. The organisers will decide whom to
> invite based on
> > > > > the submissions received. Sessions will be organized
> according to
> > > > > content, and not every accepted submission or invited
> attendee will
> > > > > have an opportunity to present as the intent is to
> foster discussion
> > > > > and not simply to have a sequence of presentations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Position papers from those not planning to attend the
> virtual sessions
> > > > > themselves are also encouraged. A workshop report will
> be published
> > > > > afterwards.
> > > > >
> > > > > Overview:
> > > > >
> > > > > "We believe that one of the major factors behind this
> lack of progress
> > > > > is the popular perception that throughput is the often
> sole measure of
> > > > > the quality of Internet connectivity. With such narrow
> focus, people
> > > > > don’t consider questions such as:
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the latency under typical working conditions?
> > > > > How reliable is the connectivity across longer time
> periods?
> > > > > Does the network allow the use of a broad range of
> protocols?
> > > > > What services can be run by clients of the network?
> > > > > What kind of IPv4, NAT or IPv6 connectivity is offered,
> and are there firewalls?
> > > > > What security mechanisms are available for local
> services, such as DNS?
> > > > > To what degree are the privacy, confidentiality,
> integrity and
> > > > > authenticity of user communications guarded?
> > > > >
> > > > > Improving these aspects of network quality will likely
> depend on
> > > > > measurement and exposing metrics to all involved
> parties, including to
> > > > > end users in a meaningful way. Such measurements and
> exposure of the
> > > > > right metrics will allow service providers and network
> operators to
> > > > > focus on the aspects that impacts the users’ experience
> most and at
> > > > > the same time empowers users to choose the Internet
> service that will
> > > > > give them the best experience."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Latest Podcast:
> > > > >
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> > <
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/>
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list
> > > > > Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:
> Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net> <mailto:
> Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net
> > <mailto:Cerowrt-devel at lists.bufferbloat.net>>
> > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel <
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel>
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Latest Podcast:
> > >
> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> <https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/
> >
> > >
> > > Dave Täht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Make-wifi-fast mailing list
> > > Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:
> Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net> <mailto:
> Make-wifi-fast at lists.bufferbloat.net
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> > >
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> >
> > --
> > Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com <mailto:greearb at candelatech.com
> >>
> > Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
> >
> >
> > This electronic communication and the information and any files
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>
> --
> Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com>
> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
>
>
--
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