<div dir="ltr">packet size is smallest udp payload per a socket write() which in turn drives the smallest packet supported by "the wire."  <div><br></div><div>Here is a back of the envelope calculation giving ~100 microseconds per BE access.<div><br></div><div><div># Overhead estimates (slot time is 9 us):</div><div># o DIFS 50 us or *AIFS (3 * 9 us) = 27 us</div><div># o *Backoff Slot * CWmin,  9 us * rand[0,xf] (avg) = 7 * 9=63 us</div><div># o 5G 20 us</div><div># o Multimode header 20 us</div><div># o PLCP (symbols) 2 * 4 us = 8 us</div><div># o *SIFS 16 us</div><div># o ACK 40 us</div><div>#</div><div># Even if there is no collision and the CW stays at the aCWmin, the average</div><div># backoff time incurred by CSMA/CA is aDIFS + aCWmin/2 * aSlotTime = 16 µs</div><div># +(2+7.5)*9 µs = 101.5 µs for OFDM PHY, while the data rate with OFDM PHY</div><div># can reach 600 Mbps in 802.11n, leading to a transmission time of 20 µs</div><div># for a 1500 byte packet.</div><div><br></div><div>All devices in a BSSID would have to agree that the second radio is to be used for BSSID "carrier state" information and all energy will be sourced by the AP serving that BSSID.  (A guess is doing this wouldn't improve the 100 us by enough to justify the cost and that a new MAC protocol is required. Just curious to what such a protocol and phy subsystem would look like assuming collision avoidance could be replaced with collision detect.)<br><br>Bob</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 1:09 PM, David Lang <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm" target="_blank">david@lang.hm</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Bob McMahon wrote:<br>
<br>
</span><span class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The ~10K is coming from empirical measurements where all aggregation<br>
technologies are disabled, i.e. only one small IP packet per medium<br>
arbitration/access and where there is only one transmitter and one<br>
receiver. 900Mb/sec is typically a peak-average throughput measurement<br>
where max (or near max) aggregation occurs, amortizing the access overhead<br>
across multiple packets.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
so 10K is minimum size packets being transmitted?or around 200 transmissions/sec (plus 200 ack transmissions/sec)?<span class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yes, devices can be hidden from each other but not from the AP (hence the<br>
use of RTS/CTS per hidden node mitigation.) Isn't it the AP's view of the<br>
"carrier state" that matters (at least in infrastructure mode?)Â If that's<br>
the case, what about a different band (and different radio) such that the<br>
strong signal carrying the data could be separated from the the BSSID's<br>
"carrier/energy state" signal?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
how do you solve the interference problem on this other band/radio? When you have other APs in the area operating, you will have the same problem there.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
David Lang</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Bob<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:40 PM, David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm" target="_blank">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Bob McMahon wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi All,<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
This is a very interesting thread - thanks to all for taking the time to<br>
respond.  (Personally, I now have better understanding of the<br>
difficulties<br>
associated with a PHY subsystem that supports a wide 1GHz.)<br>
<br>
Not to derail the current discussion, but I am curious to ideas on<br>
addressing the overhead associated with media access per collision<br>
avoidance. This overhead seems to be limiting transmits to about 10K per<br>
second (even when a link has no competition for access.)<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm not sure where you're getting 10K/second from. We do need to limit the<br>
amount of data transmitted in one session to give other stations a chance<br>
to talk, but if the AP replies immediatly to ack the traffic, and the<br>
airwaves are idle, you can transmit again pretty quickly.<br>
<br>
people using -ac equipment with a single station are getting 900Mb/sec<br>
today.<br>
<br>
 Is there a way,<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
maybe using another dedicated radio, to achieve near instantaneous<br>
collision detect (where the CD is driven by the receiver state) such that<br>
mobile devices can sample RF energy to get theses states and state changes<br>
much more quickly?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This gets back to the same problems (hidden transmitter , and the<br>
simultanious reception of wildly different signal strengths)<br>
<br>
When you are sending, you will hear yourself as a VERY strong signal,<br>
trying to hear if someone else is transmitting at the same time is almost<br>
impossible (100 ft to 1 ft is 4 orders of magnatude, 1 ft to 1 inch is<br>
another 2 orders of magnatude)<br>
<br>
And it's very possible that the station that you are colliding with isn't<br>
one you can hear at all.<br>
<br>
Any AP is going to have a better antenna than any phone. (sometimes<br>
several orders of magnatude better), so even if you were located at the<br>
same place as the AP, the AP is going to hear signals that you don't.<br>
<br>
Then consider the case where you and the other station are on opposite<br>
sides of the AP at max range.<br>
<br>
and then add cases where there is a wall between you and the other<br>
station, but the AP can hear both of you.<br>
<br>
David Lang<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>