<div dir="ltr">I think conflating bufferbloat with latency misses the subtle point in that bufferbloat is a measurement in memory units more than a measurement in time units. The first design flaw is a queue that is too big. This youtube video analogy doesn't help one understand this important point. <br><br>Another subtle point is that the video assumes AQM as the only solution and ignores others, i.e. pacing at the source(s) and/or faster service rates. A restaurant that let's one call ahead to put their name on the waitlist doesn't change the wait time. Just because a transport layer slowed down and hasn't congested a downstream queue doesn't mean the e2e latency performance will meet the gaming needs as an example. The delay is still there it's just not manifesting itself in a shared queue that may or may not negatively impact others using that shared queue.<br><br>Bob<br><br> </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:40 AM Sebastian Moeller via Make-wifi-fast <<a href="mailto:make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net">make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Erik,<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Oct 10, 2022, at 11:32, Taraldsen Erik <<a href="mailto:erik.taraldsen@telenor.no" target="_blank">erik.taraldsen@telenor.no</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On 10/10/2022, 11:09, "Sebastian Moeller" <<a href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de" target="_blank">moeller0@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Nice!<br>
> <br>
>> On Oct 10, 2022, at 07:52, Taraldsen Erik via Cake <<a href="mailto:cake@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">cake@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> It took about 3 hours from the video was release before we got the first request to have SQM on the CPE's we manage as a ISP. Finally getting some customer response on the issue. <br>
> <br>
> [SM] Will you be able to bump these requests to higher-ups and at least change some perception of customer demand for tighter latency performance?<br>
> <br>
> That would be the hope.<br>
<br>
[SM} Excellent, hope this plays out as we wish for.<br>
<br>
<br>
> We actually have fq_codel implemented on the two latest generations of DSL routers. Use sync rate as input to set the rate. Works quite well.<br>
<br>
[SM] Cool, if I might ask what fraction of the sync are you setting the traffic shaper for and are you doing fine grained overhead accounting (or simply fold that into a grand "de-rating"-factor)?<br>
<br>
<br>
> There is also a bit of traction around <a href="http://speedtest.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">speedtest.net</a>'s inclusion of latency under load internally. <br>
<br>
[SM] Yes, although IIUC they are reporting the interquartile mean for the two loaded latency estimates, which is pretty conservative and only really "triggers" for massive consistently elevated latency; so I expect this to be great for detecting really bad cases, but I fear it is too conservative and will make a number of problematic links look OK. But hey, even that is leaps and bounds better than the old only idle latency report.<br>
<br>
<br>
> My hope is that some publication in Norway will pick up on that score and do a test and get some mainstream publicity with the results.<br>
<br>
[SM] Inside the EU the challenge is to get national regulators and the BEREC to start bothering about latency-under-load at all, "some mainstream publicity" would probably help here as well.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
> <br>
> -Erik<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
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