<div dir="ltr">There is a lot of confusion on the 802.11 latency technology options. I think waiting for Wi-Fi 8 to solve this is a non starter. Solutions have to work for 20B devices already in the field.<br><br>The silo'ing hasn't helped here. Those that cross the silos are needed by my judgment. It means deep dives into 802.11 which now is a 25 year old set of standards. Those with 25 years of 802.11 standards expertise are as rare as hen's teeth and are worth their weight in gold.<br><br>Bob</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:35 AM Dave Taht via Make-wifi-fast <<a href="mailto:make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net">make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg more regularly than I did. I only<br>
gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the<br>
make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my<br>
money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of<br>
linux and openwrt. :/<br>
<br>
I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11<br>
chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to<br>
participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches<br>
on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the<br>
recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she<br>
can share her slides with us?<br>
<br>
<a href="https://wifinowglobal.com/product/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid=beb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=327a64ba92" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wifinowglobal.com/product/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid=beb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=327a64ba92</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28 AM Livingood, Jason via Bloat<br>
<<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain is certainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don’t apply. In our L4S/NQB trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the Wi-Fi network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency – so much focus right now is on throughput over everything else.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> on behalf of Rich Brown via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
> Reply-To: Rich Brown <<a href="mailto:richb.hanover@gmail.com" target="_blank">richb.hanover@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33<br>
> To: David Fernández <<a href="mailto:davidfdzp@gmail.com" target="_blank">davidfdzp@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Cc: starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>, bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discussion of L4S. Thanks<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fernández via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues with Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be improved, let's hope.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile operators), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industry, at least initially or partially.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330:<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331</a><br>
><br>
> <a href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed not only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or cross-layering at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technology, such as 5G, SATCOM, VHF...)<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> David F.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400<br>
><br>
> From: Dave Collier-Brown <<a href="mailto:dave.collier-Brown@indexexchange.com" target="_blank">dave.collier-Brown@indexexchange.com</a>><br>
> To: <a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem<br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com" target="_blank">3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
><br>
> It has an RFC at <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/</a><br>
><br>
> I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it.<br>
><br>
> I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-))<br>
><br>
> --dave<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fernández via Starlink wrote:<br>
> Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy with it.<br>
><br>
> Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish:<br>
> <a href="https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vodafone" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vodafone</a><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> David F.<br>
><br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVFWSyMp3xg&t=1098s" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVFWSyMp3xg&t=1098s</a> Waves Podcast<br>
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos<br>
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