[NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application
Robert McMahon
rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com
Sat Dec 16 17:28:53 EST 2023
Elon Musk can afford to take starlink to markey without the government subsidies. It's past time to stop subsidizing the richest person on the planet.
Bob
On Dec 16, 2023, 1:44 PM, at 1:44 PM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>When someone is speaking with a C-suit of the 25Gbps ISP that still
>believes "in over-provisioning. QoS/QoE is for those ISPs which have
>less
>bandwidth than they need" (paraphrasing) - that particular someone
>knows
>that there is still SO much work in front of us.
>
>*trying to bring this thread back on track :-)
>
>So this thread started with FCC denial to Starlink. Those 640k
>locations
>will not be served in the coming years (1-5 years, for that particular
>amount of $). Their only hope was to get served by Starlink. If FCC
>will
>decide to give those money to someone else, it's total farce. Starlink,
>in
>this particular case, was their only hope. Do you really think that you
>will see WISPs popping up at those locations? Do you see FISPs doing
>it? Or
>anyone with DOCSIS? No way.
>
>This decision was pure political BS - a revenge against Musk. And those
>people living at these locations in question are the ones that will
>loose
>the most in the crossfire. It's sad. No matter how much mental
>gymnastics
>you want to apply here in order to legitimise this post-facto. No
>internet?
>Starlink would bring at least some internet connectivity to them - I,
>those
>people or anyone without a pure political bias in this case, should not
>give a flying F that "THiS iS nOt A rEaL 1gbps/500mbps bRoADband" or
>whatever. They want and need at least some internet connectivity. The
>only
>way to deliver it to them in a reasonable timeframe is Starlink.
>
>All the best,
>
>Frank
>
>Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
>
>https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
>iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
>Skype: casioa5302ca
>
>frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>
>
>On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:48 PM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <
>nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Division was they
>have
>> to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to that. And
>I was
>> amazed. I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid who are
>representing
>> these tough types? They're all women.
>>
>> People ask me sometimes, when — when do you think it will it be
>enough?
>> When will there be enough women on the court? And my answer is when
>there
>> are nine. RBG
>>
>> Bob
>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <
>> nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer
>>> science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio. She was asked,
>>> "What's the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population
>so
>>> 50/50." The others said, "Be realistic."
>>>
>>> She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every
>technology
>>> group.Though we have more improvements to be done.
>>>
>>>
>https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/
>>>
>>> There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the denial
>>> phase. This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk
>displayed
>>> here by its constituents, are very much white male things. Not
>noticing
>>> this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the
>group. My
>>> judgment.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>> to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone
>>>> saying women's) views are not desired. I think a diversity of
>views if
>>>> extremely valuable.
>>>>
>>>> I just get my back up when people say things like 'there need to
>more
>>>> X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteristic
>that
>>>> someone is born with)
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume
>>>>> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews
>heavily
>>>>> male also.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet
>>>>> should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and
>how
>>>>> that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I
>hesitate
>>>>> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and
>>>>> messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone
>more
>>>>> important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or protecting kids),
>>>>> also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature
>>>>> conclusions from.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differently
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42 PM David Lang via Starlink
>>>>> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've used it personally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say
>that
>>>>>> women have any
>>>>>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make
>telehealth
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth
>services.
>>>>>>> They are
>>>>>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most
>of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction
>may
>>>>>>> be. So
>>>>>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth
>doesn't
>>>>>>> work over
>>>>>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for
>distance
>>>>>>> learning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should
>>>>>>> remain in
>>>>>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back
>>>>>>> telehealth access
>>>>>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as
>a
>>>>>>> growing
>>>>>>> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health
>needs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and
>consume
>>>>>>> healthcare
>>>>>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive
>to
>>>>>>> women.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no
>Internet
>>>>>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have
>to
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> with shipping bits around?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a
>way to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to
>every
>>>>>>>> house.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that
>problem
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public
>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power
>plants?
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual
>houses
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the
>>>>>>>> larger
>>>>>>>> population areas?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the
>past
>>>>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for
>>>>>>>>> electricity
>>>>>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate.
>Tele-health
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to
>>>>>>>>> follow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up.
>I'm
>>>>>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable.
>We
>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our
>best
>>>>>>>>> work for
>>>>>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was
>ill
>>>>>>>>> – no
>>>>>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to
>afford
>>>>>>>>> proper
>>>>>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in
>childbirth.
>>>>>>>>> During the
>>>>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a
>>>>>>>>> sampling of
>>>>>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women,
>158
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists
>reported,
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to see
>how
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet,
>and
>>>>>>>>> doing all
>>>>>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling
>the
>>>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the
>>>>>>>>> shearing,
>>>>>>>>> the plowing and the picking.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because there was no electricity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages
>of
>>>>>>>>>>>> satcom
>>>>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time,
>to
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of
>>>>>>>>>>>> digital
>>>>>>>>>>>> divide -
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with
>the
>>>>>>>>>>> goal to
>>>>>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access
>essentially
>>>>>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at
>>>>>>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor
>is
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal
>to
>>>>>>>>>> make a
>>>>>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a
>company
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist
>to
>>>>>>>>>> service
>>>>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is
>>>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get
>there,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it will
>>>>>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to
>be a
>>>>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of
>extreme
>>>>>>>>>>> locations,
>>>>>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on
>Mt.
>>>>>>>>>>> Whitney).
>>>>>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is
>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure that
>>>>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out.
>However
>>>>>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the
>interim
>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for
>that
>>>>>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by
>>>>>>>>>>> starlink was
>>>>>>>>>>> mostly redacted.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run
>between
>>>>>>>>>> houses is 'too far'?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in
>cities
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where
>there
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not
>profitable
>>>>>>>>>> enough.
>>>>>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per
>house' the
>>>>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the
>>>>>>>>>> majority of
>>>>>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for
>sure),
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And
>once
>>>>>>>>>> you get
>>>>>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every
>town or
>>>>>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people
>an
>>>>>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which
>is
>>>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
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