[NNagain] Net neutrality and Bufferbloat?

[Dick Roy]

Given that the capacity of a system is in essence a theoretical maximum (in
this case data rates of a communications sytem), I am not sure what "scaling
the capacity to the load" means. Throttling the load to the capacity I
understand.

Hmm ....

RR

-----Original Message-----
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of
Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2023 7:24 AM
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this
time!
Cc: Sebastian Moeller; Ronan Pigott
Subject: Re: [NNagain] Net neutrality and Bufferbloat?

Hi Jason,


during the Covid19 era, the EU issued clarifications that even throttling a
complete class like streaming video might be within reasonable network
management. The only stipulations wer this needs to happen only to allow
arguably more important traffic classes (like work-from home vide
conferences or remote schooling) to proceed with less interferences and
blind to source and sender. That is using this to play favorites amongst
streaming services would still be problematic, but down-prioritizing all
streaming would be acceptable. (Now the assumption is that reasonable
network management will not last for ever and is no replacement for scaling
the capacity to the load in the intermediate/longer terms).



> On Dec 18, 2023, at 16:10, Livingood, Jason via Nnagain
<nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> Misapplied concepts of network neutrality is one of the things that
killed
>> fq codel for DOCSIS 3.1
> 
> I am not so sure this was the case - I think it was just that a different
AQM was selected. DOCSIS 3.1 includes the DOCSIS-PIE AQM - see
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8034.html and 
>
https://www.cablelabs.com/blog/how-docsis-3-1-reduces-latency-with-active-qu
eue-management. I co-wrote a paper about our deployment during COVID at
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2107.13968.pdf. See also
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-livingood-low-latency-deployment-03.ht
ml.
> 
>> Finally, some jurisdictions impose regulations that limit the ability of
>> networks to provide differentiation of services, in large part this seems
to
>> be based on the belief that doing so necessarily involves prioritization
or
>> privileged access to bandwidth, and thus a benefit to one class of
traffic
>> always comes at the expense of another.
> 
> Much regulatory/policy discussion still frames networks as making
decisions with scarce bandwidth, rather than abundant bandwidth, and
prioritization in that view is a zero-sum game. But IMO we're no longer in
the bandwidth-scarcity era but in a bandwidth-abundance era - or at least in
an era with declining marginal utility of bandwidth as compared to
techniques to improve latency. But I digress.

	Speaking from my side of the pond, over here we still have a
somewhat big divide between those sitting on heaps of capacity and those
that are still in the painful range <= 16 Mbps (16 itself would not be so
bad, but that class goes down below 1 Mbps links and that is IMHO painful).


> 
> To go back to the question of reasonable network management - the key is
that any technique used must not be application or destination-specific. So
for example, it cannot be focused on flows to the example.com destination or
on any flows that are streaming video [1]. 

	See above, while as long as example.com is not violating the law
this first is also not an option inside the EU regulatory framework, but the
second already has been under specific limited circumstances.


> Anyway - I do not think new AQMs or dual queue low latency networking is
in conflict with net neutrality. 

	I agree that AQMs are pretty safe, and I feel that packet schedulers
are also fine, even conditional priority schedulers ;)

Regards
	Sebastian

> 
> Jason
> 
> [1] Current rules differ between wireless/mobile and fixed last mile
networks; currently the MNOs have a lot more latitude that fixed networks
but that may be sorted out in the current NPRM. My personal view is there
should be a unified set of rules of all networks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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