[NNagain] Internet Education for Non-technorati?

[David Lang]

assuming a single floor house with lose insulation in the attic

now look at a multi-story place where there isn't an attic, or one with trusses 
so that moving around the attic is hard, or a SIP cealing, cathedral cealings, 
etc.

but my initial comment on ROI and refitting cost was actually directed at the 
proposal to make heat pump retrofits mandatory.

David Lang

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:

> Retrofit is trivial. It's all in the attic. A romex splice is about $53. Verticals aren't required.
>
> Many states are mandating per each sale. I had to do this in Boston historic district. No grandfather. My fire hurts the entire street
>
> ⁣Bob
>
> On Oct 18, 2023, 7:05 PM, at 7:05 PM, David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:
>>
>>> It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's
>> $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only.
>>>
>>> The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset value
>> add for whole home, life support capable, future proof,  low power,
>> structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857.
>>>
>>> Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls and
>> no patch and paint.
>>>
>>> All homes sold in the U.S. will have to do this per 2027 fire codes.
>> The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the $2,857.
>> Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for landlords. Rent
>> increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be known
>> until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks.
>>
>> No, all NEW homes built will need it, old homes do not need to be
>> retrofitted.
>> This is normal for many things.
>>
>> It's cheap to do this sort of thing when a house is built, it's FAR
>> more
>> expensive to retrofit a house.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>>> No security vulnerabilities compared to those found in Linux
>> computers. The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics. No
>> general purpose CPU to exploit.
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.scmagazine.com/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM, at 5:40 PM, David Lang <david at lang.hm>
>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics
>> too.
>>>> Not
>>>>> sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16
>>>> MIMO radios
>>>>> at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw
>>>> compression/decompression, I
>>>>> think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K. And the
>> content
>>>> will
>>>>> likely be coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI
>>>> cable kinda
>>>>> goes away.
>>>>
>>>> until you have a few people in an area all trying to do the same
>> thing,
>>>> not they
>>>> EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and it just doesn't work
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests of cables to
>>>> connect
>>>>> things. My thoughts are no more cables other than structured fiber
>>>> and
>>>>> structured AC which both are long lived, multiple decades or more,
>>>> and hence
>>>>> are a one and done type of spend.
>>>>
>>>> It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (power,
>> video,
>>>> etc) than
>>>> it is to go completely wireless when you are stationary.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm. I've installed AFCI
>>>> circuit
>>>>> breakers for all my family, including the in laws. These can
>> trigger
>>>> easily
>>>>> when other signals are multiplexed.
>>>>>
>>>>> There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11
>>>> people died
>>>>> including children. An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented
>> that
>>>> fire.
>>>>> Working auto door closers would have helped. Providing heat pumps
>>>> would have
>>>>> helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space
>>>> heaters which
>>>>> are terrible by my judgment.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burned down too. We've got so
>>>>> improvement to do on life support systems.
>>>>
>>>> what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? (ROI timeframe),
>>>> that's
>>>> usually overlooked in these 'this technology is clearly better,
>>>> everyone should
>>>> be forced to switch to it' discussions.
>>>>
>>>> (and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, which
>>>> discourages
>>>> investments by landlords)
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Sebastian,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help
>> install
>>>> a home
>>>>>>> network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP when
>>>>>> considering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather
>>>>>> McGywer this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a
>>>>>> servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in different
>>>>>> countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more
>>>> that 30'
>>>>>>> apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communicate
>>>> with one
>>>>>>> another. The smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years
>> max.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no
>>>>>> distance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed
>>>>>> rooms that need to have one). Also over here no AC requirement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a good place to install remote radio heads, or even full
>> blown
>>>> APs,
>>>>>>> for both internet access points and for life support sensors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio
>>>>>> heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first iteration one
>>>>>> might even use PLC to bring data to the APs...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago. Early adopters aren't
>>>> likely
>>>>>>> going to wire 10G over copper in their homes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Over here active 2.5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap
>>>>>> enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2.5 has the
>> advantage
>>>> of
>>>>>> operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will
>>>> push
>>>>>> anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most
>> will
>>>> be
>>>>>> fine with < 30m).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for
>> future
>>>> proof
>>>>>>> comm cable throughout buildings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify
>>>> going
>>>>>> 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring
>> and
>>>>>> 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why
>> not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] This might be related to your professional background
>> though?
>>>> ;)
>>>>>> Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead of the rest
>>>> of
>>>>>> us, as you know what is in the pipeline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have
>> to
>>>> be
>>>>>>> wireless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Yes and no. People did not bother about wiring office desks
>> or
>>>>>> even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets are a different
>> kettle
>>>> of
>>>>>> fish, as are laptops, that might be operated wired on the desk but
>>>>>> wireless in the rest of the house. I also note that more and more
>>>>>> laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I detest that,
>> an
>>>>>> rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not be planned
>>>>>> around that, leaving some more room for e.g. NVMe sockets or
>>>> simplify
>>>>>> cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users'
>>>>>> interest, but I digress).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one wireless
>>>> tech
>>>>>>> (similar to Ethernet for wired) and a proposal is to use 802.11
>>>> since
>>>>>>> that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 	[SM] Sure 802.11 is likely to stay by virtue of being relatively
>>>>>> ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many use
>>>>>> cases (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and I
>>>>>> very much include your fiwi proposal here).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>> Hi Bob,
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain
>>>>>>>>> <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi David,
>>>>>>>>> The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The
>> make
>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied
>> to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> openwrt release process.
>>>>>>>>> I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network
>>>> equipment
>>>>>>>>> does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't have all the
>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>> needed to manage an in home packet network that includes wifi.
>>>>>>>> 	[SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable. To run a
>>>>>>>> network connected to the internet securely requires to make a
>>>> number
>>>>>>>> of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired
>> connectivity
>>>>>>>> versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of
>> maintaining
>>>>>>>> security or cost in an increase in attack surface).
>>>>>>>> 	The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved
>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from
>>>> commercial
>>>>>>>> vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find
>>>> decent
>>>>>>>> AP placement.
>>>>>>>> 	For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an
>>>> unusual
>>>>>>>> skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not
>> hard,
>>>>>>>> just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without
>>>> signaling
>>>>>>>> DIY-ness is more involved).
>>>>>>>>> I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of
>>>>>>>>> structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment
>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this
>>>> reasonably well
>>>>>>>>> because I'm familiar with the chips inside.
>>>>>>>>> The online tech support started with trepidation as he was
>>>> concerned
>>>>>>>>> that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP
>>>> technicians.
>>>>>>>>> He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o
>>>> one.
>>>>>>>> 	[SM] What "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from the
>>>> ISP?
>>>>>>>> The latter might have a script recommending ISP technicians more
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> commercial considerations than technical ones...
>>>>>>>>> He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done. He
>>>> told
>>>>>>>>> him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's
>>>> doing. My
>>>>>>>>> techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him too."
>>>>>>>>> I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the
>>>> equivalent,
>>>>>>>>> but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians on
>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get
>> a
>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>> in home network.  We're not lucky to have a flush toilet
>> anymore.
>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> stuff is too important to rely on luck.
>>>>>>>> 	[SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about
>>>> always
>>>>>>>> running network wiring parallel to electric cables so each power
>>>>>>>> socket could easily house an ethernet plug as well... (or one
>> per
>>>> room
>>>>>>>> to keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)?
>> Sort
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> put this into the building codes/best current practice
>>>> documents... (I
>>>>>>>> understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over
>> many
>>>>>>>> decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and
>>>> speaking of
>>>>>>>> decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a
>>>> more
>>>>>>>> future-oriented approach)?
>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs
>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> WiFi
>>>>>>>>> radios aren't based on openwrt.
>>>>>>>>> From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on
>>>> OpenWRT
>>>>>>>>> or one
>>>>>>>>> of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from
>>>> scratch
>>>>>>>>> I think many on this list use openwrt but
>>>>>>>>> that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend
>> is
>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> sw in
>>>>>>>>> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs
>>>> may not
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this is
>>>> highly
>>>>>>>>> speculative.)
>>>>>>>>> that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media
>>>> center,
>>>>>>>>> etc) The
>>>>>>>>> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do
>>>> if it's
>>>>>>>>> baked
>>>>>>>>> into the chips
>>>>>>>>> From my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of
>>>> commits,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile
>>>> date. So
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> size and quality of the software staff can be informative.
>>>>>>>>> I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location &
>>>> date as
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not.
>>>> Chips
>>>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>>> in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and
>>>> generate too
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips
>> as
>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> example.
>>>>>>>>> I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software.
>>>> Security holes
>>>>>>>>> are far
>>>>>>>>> more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may limit
>>>> the max
>>>>>>>>> performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the
>>>> security,
>>>>>>>>> not the
>>>>>>>>> throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra
>> info,
>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> what makes
>>>>>>>>> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the
>> age
>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> software)
>>>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:
>>>>>>>>> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a
>>>> label for
>>>>>>>>> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to
>> do
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> extra
>>>>>>>>> work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a
>>>> regulatory
>>>>>>>>> moat?)
>>>>>>>>> And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with
>> the
>>>> money
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and
>>>> security
>>>>>>>>> features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy
>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> security bad alternatives?
>>>>>>>>> As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is
>> to
>>>> ship
>>>>>>>>> a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient
>>>> version, and
>>>>>>>>> get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained
>>>> against
>>>>>>>>> upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and
>>>> right
>>>>>>>>> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of
>>>> openwrt,
>>>>>>>>> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to
>> be
>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current
>> versions
>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big
>> jump'
>>>>>>>>> upgrades.
>>>>>>>>> it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your
>> tires,
>>>>>>>>> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining
>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> systems pays off in a big way over time
>>>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>>>>>
>>>
>