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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Dave Cohen
[mailto:craetdave@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 5, 2023
3:54 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">dickroy@alum.mit.edu</st1:PersonName>;
Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time!<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Livingood, Jason<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NNagain] On
"Throttling" behaviors</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I admittedly know little
about the service from the radio out in FWA deployments like this but have done
a lot of work in the aggregation and backhaul arenas in both environments. The
advantage the FWA folks have is that it is significantly more financially
viable to not oversubscribe (or oversubscribe less) when you deliver more users
from a more centralized next hop location. In other words, it’s easier and
cheaper to have 100 Gbps serving 1000 users from a single location than it is
to have 1 Gbps serving 10 users from 100 different locations. Which is not to
say that there aren’t other challenges in FWA environments relative to FTTx
environments, but system capacity (you can always add more radios, with enough
available spectrum, at least) isn’t one of them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] Well, yes and no. Turns out this is a
convex optimization problem (or at least can be converted in to one) that
involves things like amount of spectrum, density of let’s call them access
points (or APs), the capabilities of each AP in terms of tx power, number of
antennas, how sophisticated the signal processing is that can be supported in
those APs, and a few other things like adjacent channels and their pollution
and constraints placed on the APs because they are secondary users of the band …<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>OK, with that as background the question
becomes at it’s simplest (leaving out for the moment things like OPEX, property
leases, etc.):<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>“How many customers can I serve with X
amount of infrastructure investment and Y amount of spectrum available to me
(purchased or otherwise). I am somewhat suspicious, though I have not done the
analysis yet which is why I asked the question actually, that to use your
example, supplying 100Gbps aggregate service to 1000 customers using FWA is not
within the feasible region of the optimization space and therefore something
has to give! </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> FTR, FWA has been around for 3
decades or more (the company I started was selling such units in the mid-90’s,
albeit largely for voice services since that what was wanted back then). The
systems that are still operational (and that’s a large number of them) have
been upgraded to offer data services, however the number of subscribers needs
to be capped well below that which ISPs using other newer technologies can
support. This is why I am interested to find out what the “state-of-ply” is
today! </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>J</span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=2
color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>RR</span></font></i></b><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dave Cohen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>craetdave@gmail.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Oct 5, 2023, at 6:17
PM, Dick Roy via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'></span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"><u1:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place">
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Has anyone done an analysis of the capacity of FWA systems (in
bits/sec/Hz/km^3)???? I am suspicious that the capacity falls way short
of that which cable guys have at their disposal, and that as the FWA networks
get loaded, performance is going to degrade dramatically ultimately resulting
in churn back to the cable guys. It's very expensive to compete with already
sunk FTTH or even FTTC. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>RR<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Nnagain [mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of
Livingood, Jason via Nnagain<br>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2023 1:25 PM<br>
To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this
time!<br>
Cc: Livingood, Jason<br>
Subject: Re: [NNagain] On "Throttling" behaviors<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> On 10/4/23, 13:45, "Nnagain on behalf of David Lang via
Nnagain" <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net
<mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net>>
wrote:<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> It's an unfortunate fact of reality that the enviornment in the <st1:country-region u2:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region></st1:place></st1:country-region>
is one where <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>there is very little competition in the ISP space <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>The SEC 10-K filings of ISPs no longer support that. Most wireline ISPs
are losing subscribers (at material levels) to one of the three new national 5G
FWA ISPs (Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T). In addition, we will in a few years see
the effects of $45B+ of grant money dedicated to underwrite new broadband
access network construction - that is also pretty material. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Per
https://telecoms.com/523519/growth-in-5g-fwa-kit-matches-operator-hype/<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>- " 5G FWA customer premises equipment shipments more than doubled
to 7.4 million last year and should reach 13.8 million – that’s 86% growth –
this year "<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>- " The GSA survey shows overall FWA CPE shipments of 25.5 million
units last year, "<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>- " Statistics shared by Leichtman Research Group recently showed
that T-Mobile and Verizon together recorded the best part of 900,000 5G FWA net
adds in the second quarter of this year, significantly more than the virtually
flat cable segment and ahead of the wireline broadband market, which lost
almost 62,000 customers in the three months. "<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>JL<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Nnagain mailing list<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
Nnagain mailing list<br>
Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<br>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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