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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Nnagain
[mailto:nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Robert McMahon via Nnagain<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 10, 2023
12:01 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Jack Haverty via Nnagain<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Robert McMahon<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NNagain] somewhat
OT: Licklidder</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks for sharing. It's
amazing to me what was accomplished and continues forward with communications
& compute by extremely phenomenal people. I think the closest analog is the
Gutenberg press, which many know had profound effects on the human condition. A
hope is that we figure out how to progress in a similar manner, and somehow,
the diffusion of knowledge and peaceful coexistence prevail.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="https://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-24-3-b-gutenberg-and-the-printing-revolution-in-europe#:~:text=Johann%20Gutenberg%27s%20invention%20of%20movable,split%20apart%20the%20Catholic%20Church">https://www.crf-usa.org//bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-24-3-b-gutenberg-and-the-printing-revolution-in-europe#:~:text=Johann%20Gutenberg%27s%20invention%20of%20movable,split%20apart%20the%20Catholic%20Church</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Johann Gutenberg’s
invention of movable-type printing quickened the spread of knowledge,
discoveries, and literacy in Renaissance Europe. The printing revolution also
contributed mightily to the Protestant Reformation that split apart the
Catholic Church.<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] It is claimed by many to be the
achievement that most profoundly affected humanity over the last two millennia!
Hard to disagree IMO!<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>RR<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Bob<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Oct 10, 2023, at 10:12 AM, Jack Haverty via Nnagain <<a
href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>FYI, The Arpanet was a key player in that patent fight. The Arpanet <br>
IMPs (the packet switches) downloaded software from each other, and that <br>
capability was used to distribute new releases of the IMP program. I <br>
suggested that 1970s implementation to the lawyers as a good example of <br>
prior art, which led to a lot of work that eventually resurrected the <br>
1970s IMP code from a moldy listing in someone's basement, and got it <br>
running again on simulated ancient hardware. At one point the 4-node <br>
Arpanet of 1970 was created and run, in anticipation of a demo of prior <br>
art at trial. Sadly (for me at least) the combatants suddenly settled <br>
out of court, so the trial never happened and the patent issue was not <br>
adjudicated. But the resurrected IMP code is on github now, so anyone <br>
interested can run their own Arpanet.<br>
<br>
Jack<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/10/23 08:53, Steve Crocker via Nnagain wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Lots of good stuff here and I missed the earlier posts, but one small <br>
thing caught my attention:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> About 10 years ago, I accidentally got involved in a patent<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> dispute to be an "expert witness", for a patent involving<br>
downloading new programs over a communications path into a remote<br>
computer (yes, what all our devices do almost every day).<br>
<br>
In the seminal period of late 1968 and early 1969 when we were <br>
thinking about Arpanet protocols, one idea that was very much part of <br>
our thinking was downloading a small program at the beginning of an <br>
interactive session. The downloaded program would take care of local <br>
interactions to avoid the need to send every character across the net <br>
only to have it echoed remotely. Why not always use local echo? <br>
Because most of the time-shared systems in the various ARPA-supported <br>
research environments had distinct ways of interpreting each and <br>
every character. Imposing a network-wide rule of local echoing would <br>
have compromised the usability of most of the systems on the Arpanet. <br>
I think Multics was the only "modern" line-at-a-time system at the time.<br>
<br>
In March 1969 we decided it was time to write down the ideas from our <br>
meetings in late 1968 and early 1969. The first batch of RFCs <br>
included Rulifson's RFC 5. He proposed <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">DEL</st1:place></st1:State>, the Decode-Encode <br>
Language. Elie's RFC 51 a year later proposed the Network Interchange <br>
Language. In both cases the basic concept was the creation of a <br>
simple language, easily implementable on each platform, that would <br>
mediate the interaction with a remote system. The programs were <br>
expected to be short -- hence downloadable quickly -- and either <br>
interpreted or quickly translated. There was a tiny bit of <br>
experimental work along this line, but it was far ahead of its time. <br>
I think it was about 25 years before ActiveX came along, followed by Java.<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 11:30</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span
style='font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font>AM Dave Taht via Nnagain <br>
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 7:56<font face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:
Tahoma'> </span></font>PM Jack Haverty via Nnagain<br>
<nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<br>
<br>
For starters it is an honor to be conversing with folk that knew Bob<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Taylor</st1:place></st1:City>, and "Lick", and y'all made me go back and re-read<br>
<br>
<a href="http://memex.org/licklider.pdf">http://memex.org/licklider.pdf</a><br>
<br>
For inspiration. I think everyone in our field should re-read that,<br>
periodically. For example he makes an overgeneralization about the<br>
thinking processes of men, as compared to the computers of the time,<br>
and not to women...<br>
<br>
But I have always had an odd question - what songs did Lick play on<br>
guitar? Do any recordings exist?<br>
<br>
Music defines who I am, at least. I love the angularness and surprises<br>
in jazz, and the deep storytelling buried deep in Shostakovich's<br>
Fifth. Moving forward to modern music: the steady backbeat of Burning<br>
Man - and endless repetition of short phrases - seems to lead to<br>
groupthink - I can hardly stand EDM for an hour.<br>
<br>
I am "maked" by Angela' Lansbury's Sweeny Todd, and my religion,<br>
forever reformed by Monty Python's Life of Brian, One Flew over the<br>
Cookoos nest, 12 Angry Men, and the 12 Monkees, Pink Floyd and punk<br>
music were the things that shaped me. No doubt it differs<br>
significantly for everyone here, please share?<br>
<br>
Powerful tales and their technologies predate the internet, and<br>
because they were wildly shared, influenced how generations thought<br>
without being the one true answer. Broadcast media, also, was joint,<br>
and in school we<br>
<br>
We are in a new era of uncommonality of experience, in part from<br>
bringing in all the information in the world, while still separated by<br>
differences in language, exposure, education, and culture, although<br>
nowadays it has become so easy and natural to be able to use computer<br>
assisted language translation tools, I do not know how well they truly<br>
make the jump between cultures.<br>
<br>
In that paper he talked about 75% of his time being spent setting up<br>
to do analytics, where today so much information exists as to be<br>
impossible to analyze.<br>
<br>
I only have a few more small comments below, but I wanted to pick out<br>
the concepts of TOS and backpressure as needing thought on another<br>
day, in another email (what was licks song list??? :)). The internet<br>
has very little Tos or backpressure, and Flow Queuing based algorithms<br>
actually function thusly:<br>
<br>
If the arrival rate of a flow is less than the departure rate of all<br>
other flows, it goes out first.<br>
<br>
To some extent this matches some of Nagles' "every application has a<br>
right to one packet in the network", and puts a reward into the system<br>
for applications that use slightly less than their fair share of the<br>
bandwidth.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> IMHO, the problem may be that the Internet, and computing<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> technology in general, is so new that non-technical organizations,<br>
such as government entities, don't understand it and therefore<br>
can't figure out whether or how to regulate anything involved.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
In other, older, "technologies", rules, procedures, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> traditions have developed over the years to provide for feedback<br>
and control between governees and governors. Roberts Rules of<br>
Order was created 150 years ago, and is still widely used to<br>
manage public meetings. I've been in local meetings where<br>
everyone gets a chance to speak, but are limited to a few minutes<br>
to say whatever's on their mind. You have to appear in person,<br>
wait your turn, and make your comment. Doing so is free, but still<br>
has the cost of time and hassle to get to the meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Organizations have figured out over the years how to manage<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> meetings. [Vint - remember the "Rathole!" mechanism that we used<br>
to keep Internet meetings on track...?]<br>
<br>
PARC had "Dealer".<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> From what David describes, it sounds like the current "public<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comment" mechanisms in the electronic arena are only at the stage<br>
where the loudest voices can drown out all others, and public<br>
debates are essentially useless cacophonies of the loudest<br>
proponents of the various viewpoints. There are no rules. Why<br>
should anyone submit their own sensible comments, knowing they'll<br>
be lost in the noise?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
In non-electronic public forums, such behavior is ruled out, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> if it persists, the governing body can have offenders ejected,<br>
adjourn a meeting until cooler heads prevail, or otherwise make<br>
the discourse useful for informing decisions. Courts can issue<br>
restraining orders, but has any court ever issued such an order<br>
applying to an electronic forum?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
So, why haven't organizations yet developed rules and mechanisms<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> for managing electronic discussions....?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
I'd offer two observations and suggestions.<br>
<br>
-----<br>
<br>
First, a major reason for a lack of such rules and mechanisms<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> may be an educational gap. Administrators, politicians, and<br>
staffers may simply not understand all this newfangled technology,<br>
or how it works, and are drowning in a sea of terminology,<br>
acronyms, and concepts that make no sense (to them). In the FCC<br>
case, even the technical gurus may have deep knowledge of their<br>
traditional realm of telephony, radio, and related issues and<br>
policy tradeoffs. But they may be largely ignorant of computing<br>
and networking equivalents. Probably even worse, they may<br>
unconsciously consider the new world as a simple evolution of the<br>
old, not recognizing the impact of incredibly fast computers and<br>
communications, and the advances that they enable, such as "AI" -<br>
whatever that is...<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
About 10 years ago, I accidentally got involved in a patent<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> dispute to be an "expert witness", for a patent involving<br>
downloading new programs over a communications path into a remote<br>
computer (yes, what all our devices do almost every day). I was<br>
astounded when I learned how little the "judicial system"<br>
(lawyers, judges, legislators, etc.) knew about computer and<br>
network technology. That didn't stop them from debating the<br>
meaning of technical terms. What is RAM? How does "programming"<br>
differ from "reprogramming"? What is "memory"? What is a<br>
"processor"? What is an "operating system"? The arguments<br>
continue until eventually a judge declares what the answer is,<br>
with little technical knowledge or expertise to help. So you can<br>
easily get legally binding definitions such as "operating system"<br>
means "Windows", and that all computers contain an operating system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
I spent hours on the phone over about 18 months, explaining to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> the lawyers how computers and networks actually worked. In turn,<br>
they taught me quite a lot about the vagaries of the laws and<br>
patents. It was fascinating but also disturbing to see how<br>
ill-prepared the legal system was for new technologies.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
So, my suggestion is that a focus be placed on helping the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> non-technical decision makers understand the nuances of computing<br>
and the Internet. I don't think that will be successful by<br>
burying them in the sea of technical jargon and acronyms.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Before I retired, I spent a lot of time with C-suite denizens<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> from companies outside of the technology industry - banks,<br>
manufacturers, transportation, etc. - helping them understand what<br>
"The Internet" was, and help them see it as both a huge<br>
opportunity and a huge threat to their businesses. One technique<br>
I used was simply stolen from the early days of The Internet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
When we were involved in designing the internal mechanisms of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> the Internet, in particular TCPV4, we didn't know much about<br>
networks either. So we used analogies. In particular we used the<br>
existing transportation infrastructure as a model. Moving bits<br>
around the world isn't all that different from moving goods and<br>
people. But everyone, even with no technical expertise, knows<br>
about transportation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
It turns out that there are a lot of useful analogies. For<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> example, we recognized that there were different kinds of<br>
"traffic" with different needs. Coal for power plants was<br>
important, but not urgent. If a coal train waits on a siding<br>
while a passenger train passes, it's OK, even preferred. There<br>
could be different "types of service" available from the<br>
transportation infrastructure. At the time (late 1970s) we<br>
didn't know exactly how to do that, but decided to put a field in<br>
the IP header as a placeholder - the "TOS" field. Figuring out<br>
what different TOSes there should be, and how they would be<br>
handled differently, was still on the to-do list. There are even<br>
analogies to the Internet - goods might travel over a "marine<br>
network" to a "port", where they are moved onto a "rail network",<br>
to a distributor, and moved on the highway network to their final<br>
destination. Routers, gateways, ...<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Other transportation analogies reinforced the notion of TOS. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> E.g., if you're sending a document somewhere, you can choose how<br>
to send it - normal postal mail, or Priority Mail, or even use a<br>
different "network" such as an overnight delivery service. <br>
Different TOS would engage different behaviors of the underlying<br>
communications system, and might also have different costs to use<br>
them. Sending a ton of coal to get delivered in a week or two<br>
would cost a lot less than sending a ton of documents for<br>
overnight delivery.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
There were other transportation analogies heard during the TCPV4<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> design discussions - e.g., "Expressway Routing" (do you take a<br>
direct route over local streets, or go to the freeway even though<br>
it's longer) and "Multi-Homing" (your manufacturing plant has<br>
access to both a highway and a rail line).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Suggestion -- I suspect that using a familiar infrastructure<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> such as transport to discuss issues with non-technical decision<br>
makers would be helpful. E.g., imagine what would happen if some<br>
particular "net neutrality" set of rules was placed on the<br>
transportation infrastructure? Would it have a desirable effect?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
-----<br>
<br>
Second, in addition to anonymity as an important issue in the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> electronic world, my experience as a mentee of Licklider surfaced<br>
another important issue in the "galactic network" vision -- "Back<br>
Pressure". The notion is based in existing knowledge. <br>
Economics has notions of Supply and Demand and Cost Curves. <br>
Engineering has the notion of "Negative Feedback" to stabilize<br>
mechanical, electrical, or other systems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
We discussed Back Pressure, in the mid 70s, in the context of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> electronic mail, and tried to get the notion of "stamps" accepted<br>
as part of the email mechanisms. The basic idea was that there<br>
had to be some form of "back pressure" to prevent overload by<br>
discouraging sending of huge quantities of mail.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
At the time, mail traffic was light, since every message was<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> typed by hand by some user. In Lick's group we had experimented<br>
with using email as a way for computer programs to interact. In<br>
Lick's vision, humans would interact by using their computers as<br>
their agents. Even then, computers could send email a lot faster<br>
and continuously than any human at a keyboard, and could easily<br>
flood the network. [This epiphany occurred shortly after a<br>
mistake in configuring distribution lists caused so many messages<br>
and replies that our machine crashed as its disk space ran out.]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
"Stamps" didn't necessarily represent monetary cost. Back<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> pressure could be simple constraints, e.g., no user can send more<br>
than 500 (or whatever) messages per day. This notion never got<br>
enough support to become part of the email standards; I still<br>
think it would help with the deluge of spam we all experience today.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Back Pressure in the Internet today is largely non-existent. I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> (or my AI and computers) can send as much email as I like. <br>
Communications carriers promote "unlimited data" but won't<br>
guarantee anything. Memory has become cheap, and as a result<br>
behaviors such as "buffer bloat" have appeared.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Suggestion - educate the decision-makers about Back Pressure,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> using highway analogies (metering lights, etc.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
-----<br>
<br>
Education about the new technology, but by using some familiar<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> analogs, and introduction of Back Pressure, in some appropriate<br>
form, as part of a "network neutrality" policy, would be the two<br>
foci I'd recommend.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
My prior suggestion of "registration" and accepting only the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> last comment was based on the observations above. Back pressure<br>
doesn't have to be monetary, and registered users don't have to be<br>
personally identified. Simply making it sufficiently "hard" to<br>
register (using CAPTCHAs, 2FA, whatever) would be a "cost"<br>
discouraging "loud voices". Even the law firms submitting<br>
millions of comments on behalf of their clients might balk at the<br>
cost (in labor not money) to register their million clients, even<br>
anonymously, so each could get his/her comment submitted. Of<br>
course, they could always pass the costs on to their (million?<br>
really?) clients. But it would still be Back Pressure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
One possibility -- make the "cost" of submitting a million<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> electronic comments equal to the cost of submitting a million<br>
postcards...?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Jack Haverty<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/9/23 16:55, David Bray, PhD wrote:<br>
<br>
Great points Vint as you're absolutely right - there are<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> multiple modalities here (and in the past it was spam from<br>
thousands of postcards, then mimeographs, then faxes, etc.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
The standard historically has been set by the Administrative<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Conference of the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>: <a
href="https://www.acus.gov/about-acus">https://www.acus.gov/about-acus</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
In 2020 there seemed to be an effort to gave the General<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Services Administration weigh-in, however they closed that<br>
rulemaking attempt without publishing any of the comments they got<br>
and no announcement why it was closed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
As for what part of Congress - I believe ACUS was championed by<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> both the Senate and House Judiciary Committees as it has oversight<br>
and responsibility for the interpretations of the Administrative<br>
Procedure Act of 1946 (which sets out the whole rulemaking procedure).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
Sadly there isn't a standard across agencies - which also means<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> there isn't a standard across Administrations. Back in 2018 and<br>
2020, both with this group of 52 people here<br>
<a href="https://tinyurl.com/letter-signed-52-people">https://tinyurl.com/letter-signed-52-people</a> - as well as<br>
individually - I did my darnest to encourage them to do a standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
There's also the National Academy of Public Administration which<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> is probably the latest remaining non-partisan forum for<br>
discussions like this too.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 7:46</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span
style='font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font>PM Vint Cerf <<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">vint@google.com</st1:PersonName>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
David, this is a good list.<br>
FACA has rules for public participation, for example.<br>
<br>
I think it should be taken into account for any public<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> commenting process that online (and offline such as USPS or fax<br>
and phone calls) that spam and artificial inflation of comments<br>
are possible. Is there any specific standard for <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> agency public<br>
comment handling? If now, what committees of the US Congress might<br>
have jurisdiction?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
v<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 8:22</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span
style='font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font>AM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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I'm all for doing new things to make things better.<br>
<br>
At the same time, I used to do bioterrorism preparedness and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> response from 2000-2005 (and aside from asking myself what kind of<br>
crazy world needed counter-bioterrorism efforts... I also realized<br>
you don't want to interject something completely new in the middle<br>
of an unfolding crisis event). If something were to be injected<br>
now, it would have to have consensus from both sides, otherwise at<br>
least one side (potentially detractors from both) will claim that<br>
whatever form the new approaches take are somehow advantaging "the<br>
other side" and disadvantaging them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Probably would take a ruling by the Administrative Conference<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> of the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>, at a minimum to answer these five questions<br>
- and even then, introducing something completely different in the<br>
midst of a political melee might just invite mudslinging unless<br>
moderate voices on both sides can reach some consensus.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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1. Does identity matter regarding who files a comment or not —<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> and must one be a <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> person in order to file?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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2. Should agencies publish real-time counts of the number of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comments received — or is it better to wait until the end of a<br>
commenting round to make all comments available, including counts?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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3. Should third-party groups be able to file on behalf of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> someone else or not — and do agencies have the right to remove<br>
spam-like comments?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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4. Should the public commenting process permit multiple<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comments per individual for a proceeding — and if so, how many<br>
comments from a single individual are too many? 100? 1000? More?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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5. Finally, should the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> government itself consider, given<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> public perceptions about potential conflicts of interest for any<br>
agency performing a public commenting process, whether it would be<br>
better to have third-party groups take responsibility for<br>
assembling comments and then filing those comments via a validated<br>
process with the government?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<br>
<br>
On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 4:10</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span
style='font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font>PM Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Hi again David et al,<br>
<br>
Interesting frenzy...lots of questions that need answers and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> associated policies. I served 6 years as an elected official (in<br>
a small special district in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">California</st1:place></st1:State>), so I have some small<br>
understanding of the government side of things and the constraints<br>
involved. Being in charge doesn't mean you can do what you want.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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I'm thinking here more near-term and incremental steps. You<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> said "These same questions need pragmatic pilots that involve the<br>
public ..."<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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So, how about using the current NN situation for a pilot? <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Keep all the current ways and emerging AI techniques to continue<br>
to flood the system with comments. But also offer an *optional*<br>
way for humans to "register" as a commenter and then submit their<br>
(latest only) comment into the melee. Will people use it? Will<br>
"consumers" (the lawyers, commissioners, etc.) find it useful?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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I've found it curious, for decades now, that there are (too<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> many) mechanisms for "secure email", that may help with the flood<br>
of disinformation from anonymous senders, but very very few people<br>
use them. Maybe they don't know how; maybe the available schemes<br>
are too flawed; maybe ...?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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About 30 years ago, I was a speaker in a public meeting<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> orchestrated by USPS, and recommended that they take a lead role,<br>
e.g., by acting as a national CA - certificate authority. Never<br>
happened though. FCC issues lots of licenses...perhaps they<br>
could issue online credentials too?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Perhaps a "pilot" where you will also accept comments by<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> email, some possibly sent by "verified" humans if they understand<br>
how to do so, would be worth trying? Perhaps comments on<br>
"technical aspects" coming from people who demonstrably know how<br>
to use technology would be valuable to the policy makers?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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The Internet, and technology such as TCP, began as an<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> experimental pilot about 50 years ago. Sometimes pilots become<br>
infrastructures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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FYI, I'm signing this message. Using OpenPGP. I could<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> encrypt it also, but my email program can't find your public key.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Jack Haverty<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/5/23 14:21, David Bray, PhD wrote:<br>
<br>
Indeed Jack - a few things to balance - the Administrative<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Procedure Act of 1946 (on which the idea of rulemaking is based)<br>
us about raising legal concerns that must be answered by the<br>
agency at the time the rulemaking is done. It's not a vote nor is<br>
it the case that if the agency gets tons of comments in one<br>
direction that they have to go in that direction. Instead it's<br>
only about making sure legal concerns are considered and responded<br>
to before the agency before the agency acts. (Which is partly why<br>
sending "I'm for XYZ" or "I'm against ABC" really doesn't mean<br>
anything to an agency - not only is that not a legal argument or<br>
concern, it's also not something where they're obligated to follow<br>
these comments - it's not a vote or poll).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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That said, political folks have spun things to the public as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> if it is a poll/vote/chance to act. The raise a valid legal<br>
concern part of the APA of 1946 is omitted. Moreover the fact that<br>
third party law firms and others like to submit comments on behalf<br>
of clients - there will always be a third party submitting<br>
multiple comments for their clients (or "clients") because that's<br>
their business.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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In the lead up to 2017, the Consumer and Government Affairs<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Bureau of the FCC got an inquiry from a firm asking how they could<br>
submit 1 million comments a day on an "upcoming privacy<br>
proceeding" (their words, astute observers will note there was no<br>
privacy proceeding before the FCC in 2017). When the Bureau asked<br>
me, I told them either mail us a CD to upload it or submit one<br>
comment with 1 million signatures. To attempt to flood us with 1<br>
million comments a day (aside from the fact who can "predict"<br>
having that many daily) would deny resources to others. In the<br>
mess that followed, what was released to the public was so<br>
redacted you couldn't see the legitimate concerns and better paths<br>
that were offered to this entity.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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And the FCC isn't alone. EPA, FTC, and other regulatory<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> agencies have had these hijinks for years - and before the<br>
Internet it was faxes, mass mimeographs (remember blue ink?), and<br>
postcards.The Administrative Conference of the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
(ACUS) - is the body that is supposed to provide consistent<br>
guidance for things like this across the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> government. I've<br>
briefed them and tried to raise awareness of these issues - as I<br>
think fundamentally this is a **process** question that once<br>
answered, tech can support. However they're not technologies and<br>
updating the interpretation of the process isn't something lawyers<br>
are apt to do until the evidence that things are in trouble is<br>
overwhelming.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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52 folks wrote a letter to them - and to GSA - back in 2020.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> GSA had a rulemaking of its own on how to improve things, yet<br>
oddly never published any of the comments it received (including<br>
ours) and closed the rulemaking quietly. Here's the letter:<br>
<a href="https://tinyurl.com/letter-signed-52-people">https://tinyurl.com/letter-signed-52-people</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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And here's an article published in OODAloop about this - and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> why Generative AI is probably going to make things even more<br>
challenging:<br>
<a
href="https://www.oodaloop.com/archive/2023/04/18/why-a-pause-on-ai-development-is-not-the-answer-an-insiders-perspective">https://www.oodaloop.com/archive/2023/04/18/why-a-pause-on-ai-development-is-not-the-answer-an-insiders-perspective</a>/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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[snippet of the article] Now in 2023 and Beyond: Proactive<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Approaches to AI and Society<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Looking to the future, to effectively address the challenges<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> arising from AI, we must foster a proactive, results-oriented, and<br>
cooperative approach with the public. Think tanks and universities<br>
can engage the public in conversations about how to work, live,<br>
govern, and co-exist with modern technologies that impact society.<br>
By involving diverse voices in the decision-making process, we can<br>
better address and resolve the complex challenges AI presents on<br>
local and national levels.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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In addition, we must encourage industry and political leaders<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> to participate in finding non-partisan, multi-sector solutions if<br>
civil societies are to remain stable. By working together, we can<br>
bridge the gap between technological advancements and their<br>
societal implications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Finally, launching AI pilots across various sectors, such as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> work, education, health, law, and civil society, is essential. We<br>
must learn by doing on how we can create responsible civil<br>
environments where AIs can be developed and deployed responsibly.<br>
These initiatives can help us better understand and integrate AI<br>
into our lives, ensuring its potential is harnessed for the<br>
greater good while mitigating risks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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In 2019 and 2020, a group of fifty-two people asked the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Administrative Conference of the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region> (which helps guide<br>
rulemaking procedures for federal agencies), General Accounting<br>
Office, and the General Services Administration to call attention<br>
to the need to address the challenges of chatbots flooding public<br>
commenting procedures and potentially crowding out or denying<br>
services to actual humans wanting to leave a comment. We asked:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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1. Does identity matter regarding who files a comment or not<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> — and must one be a <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> person in order to file?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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2. Should agencies publish real-time counts of the number of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comments received — or is it better to wait until the end of a<br>
commenting round to make all comments available, including counts?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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3. Should third-party groups be able to file on behalf of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> someone else or not — and do agencies have the right to remove<br>
spam-like comments?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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4. Should the public commenting process permit multiple<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comments per individual for a proceeding — and if so, how many<br>
comments from a single individual are too many? 100? 1000? More?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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5. Finally, should the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> government itself consider, given<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> public perceptions about potential conflicts of interest for any<br>
agency performing a public commenting process, whether it would be<br>
better to have third-party groups take responsibility for<br>
assembling comments and then filing those comments via a validated<br>
process with the government?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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These same questions need pragmatic pilots that involve the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> public to co-explore and co-develop how we operate effectively<br>
amid these technological shifts. As the capabilities of LLMs<br>
continue to grow, we need positive change agents willing to tackle<br>
the messy issues at the intersection of technology and society.<br>
The challenges are immense, but so too are the opportunities for<br>
positive change. Let’s seize this moment to create a better<br>
tomorrow for all. Working together, we can co-create a future that<br>
embraces AI’s potential while mitigating its risks, informed by<br>
the hard lessons we have already learned.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Full article:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="https://www.oodaloop.com/archive/2023/04/18/why-a-pause-on-ai-development-is-not-the-answer-an-insiders-perspective">https://www.oodaloop.com/archive/2023/04/18/why-a-pause-on-ai-development-is-not-the-answer-an-insiders-perspective</a>/<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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Hope this helps.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 4:44</span></font><font face=Tahoma><span
style='font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font>PM Jack Haverty via Nnagain<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Thanks for all your efforts to keep the "feedback loop" to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> the rulemakers functioning!<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> I'd like to offer a suggestion for a hopefully politically<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> acceptable way to handle the deluge, derived from my own battles<br>
with "email" over the years (decades).<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Back in the 1970s, I implemented one of the first email<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> systems on the Arpanet, under the mentorship of JCR Licklider, who<br>
had been pursuing his vision of a "Galactic Network" at ARPA and<br>
MIT. One of the things we discovered was the significance of<br>
anonymity. At the time, anonymity was forbidden on the Arpanet;<br>
you needed an account on some computer, protected by passwords, in<br>
order to legitimately use the network. The mechanisms were crude<br>
and easily broken, but the principle applied.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Over the years, that principle has been forgotten, and the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> right to be anonymous has become entrenched. But many uses of<br>
the network, and needs of its users, demand accountability, so all<br>
sorts of mechanisms have been pasted on top of the network to<br>
provide ways to judge user identity. Banks, medical services,<br>
governments, and businesses all demand some way of proving your<br>
identity, with passwords, various schemes of 2FA, VPNs, or other<br>
such technology, with varying degrees of protection. It is still<br>
possible to be anonymous on the net, but many things you do<br>
require you to prove, to some extent, who you are.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> So, my suggestion for handling the deluge of "comments" is:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> 1/ create some mechanism for "registering" your intent to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> submit a comment. Make it hard for bots to register. Perhaps<br>
you can leverage the work of various partners, e.g., ISPs,<br>
retailers, government agencies, financial institutions, of others<br>
who already have some way of identifying their users.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> 2/ Also make registration optional - anyone can still submit<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> comments anonymously if they choose.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> 3/ for "registered commenters", provide a way to "edit" your<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> previous comment - i.e., advise that your comment is always the<br>
last one you submitted. I.E., whoever you are, you can only<br>
submit one comment, which will be the last one you submit.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> 4/ In the thousands of pages of comments, somehow flag the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> ones that are from registered commenters, visible to the people<br>
who read the comments. Even better, provide those "information<br>
consumers" with ways to sort, filter, and search through the body<br>
of comments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> This may not reduce the deluge of comments, but I'd expect<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> it to help the lawyers and politicians keep their heads above the<br>
water.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Anonymity is an important issue for Net Neutrality too, but<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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