<html><head></head><body style="zoom: 0%;"><div dir="auto">It's $428 per ac ceiling mount hardwired device, no verticals. It's $503 per vertical for rg6 with patch n paint, internal walls only. <br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">The asset value add for a rg6 jack is basically zero. The asset value add for whole home, life support capable, future proof, low power, structured fiber & remote radio head is $2,857.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">Staying ceiling mount helps a lot, no need for holes in the walls and no patch and paint. <br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">All homes sold in the U.S. will have to do this per 2027 fire codes. The smart ones will connect the fiber fronthaul to capture the $2,857. Home networking is second behind in unit laundry for landlords. Rent increase for 100Gb/s point to point full duplex FiWi won't be known until after the $100M NRE spend to create the radio sticks.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">No security vulnerabilities compared to those found in Linux computers. The radio stick is DSPs in transistors and optics. No general purpose CPU to exploit.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto"><a href="https://www.scmagazine.com/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug">https://www.scmagazine.com/news/thousands-of-devices-exposed-to-critical-cisco-ios-xe-software-bug</a><br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">Bob</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" >On Oct 18, 2023, at 5:40 PM, David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm" target="_blank">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class="blue">On Sat, 14 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> On being unleashed, I think this applies to consumer electronics too. Not <br> sure why HDMI class cables will be needed. WiFi 7 is spec'd at 16 MIMO radios <br> at 45Gb/s per front end module. Add some hw compression/decompression, I <br> think it can carry even HDMI Utlra High Speed or 8K. And the content will <br> likely be coming from the cloud too, so the need for a short HDMI cable kinda <br> goes away.<br></blockquote><br>until you have a few people in an area all trying to do the same thing, not they <br>EACH need that much low-latency bandwith, and it just doesn't work well.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> Maybe I'm unique of being tired of having rats' nests of cables to connect <br> things. My thoughts are no more cables other than structured fiber and <br> structured AC which both are long lived, multiple decades or more, and hence <br> are a one and done type of spend.<br></blockquote><br>It's much more practical to go to a single USB-C cable (power, video, etc) than <br>it is to go completely wireless when you are stationary.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> I'm not a fan of PLC, mixing power and comm. I've installed AFCI circuit <br> breakers for all my family, including the in laws. These can trigger easily <br> when other signals are multiplexed.<br><br> There were so many things that went wrong in The Bronx where 11 people died <br> including children. An AFCI breaker would likely have prevented that fire. <br> Working auto door closers would have helped. Providing heat pumps would have <br> helped too so kids didn't have to use electric resistive space heaters which <br> are terrible by my judgment.<br><br> It's hard to believe that Notre Dame burned down too. We've got so <br> improvement to do on life support systems.<br></blockquote><br>what's the retrofit cost vs the incrimental cost? (ROI timeframe), that's <br>usually overlooked in these 'this technology is clearly better, everyone should <br>be forced to switch to it' discussions.<br><br>(and don't get me started on Rent Control, common in NYC, which discourages <br>investments by landlords)<br><br>David Lang<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bronx_apartment_fire</a><br><br> Bob<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #ad7fa8; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi Bob,<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> On Oct 13, 2023, at 19:20, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:<br> <br> Hi Sebastian,<br> <br> It was the ISP tech support over the phone. Trying to help install a home <br> network over the phone w/o a technician isn't easy.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Ah, okay. I would never even think about calling my ISP when<br> considering changes to my home network (for one, I would rather<br> McGywer this, and also my ISP does not really offer that as a<br> servicedsdw), I guess different service offerings in different<br> countries.<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> In many U.S. states, smoke detectors are required to be no more that 30' <br> apart, must be AC powered, battery backed up and must communicate with one <br> another. The smoke sensor needs to be replaced every ten years max.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Intersting! Over here detectors are also mandatory (but no<br> distance or networking requirements, it is special rooms like bed<br> rooms that need to have one). Also over here no AC requirement.<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> It's a good place to install remote radio heads, or even full blown APs, <br> for both internet access points and for life support sensors.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] I agree, and with an AC requirement powering such APs/radio<br> heads is not rocket science either, heck in a first iteration one<br> might even use PLC to bring data to the APs...<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> 10G NRE spends stopped over a decade ago. Early adopters aren't likely <br> going to wire 10G over copper in their homes.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Over here active 2.5 Gbps ethernet are just becoming cheap<br> enough for enthusiasts to switch over to, and 2.5 has the advantage of<br> operating well even over most cat5 wiring (few homes I know will push<br> anywhere close to the typical 100m copper ethernet limit, most will be<br> fine with < 30m).<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> 100G only goes 4 meters so copper really isn't an option for future proof <br> comm cable throughout buildings.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Indeed, but I am not 100% sure what use-case would justify going<br> 100Gbps in a typical home? Sure if one switches to fiber wiring and<br> 100Gbps is only marginally more expensive than 1 or 10 Gbps why not?<br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> Fiber to WiFi seems straight forward to me.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] This might be related to your professional background though? ;)<br> Just kidding, I think you are simply a few years ahead of the rest of<br> us, as you know what is in the pipeline.<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> People don't want to be leashed to plugs so the last meters have to be <br> wireless.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Yes and no. People did not bother about wiring office desks or<br> even smart TVs, but smart phones and tablets are a different kettle of<br> fish, as are laptops, that might be operated wired on the desk but<br> wireless in the rest of the house. I also note that more and more<br> laptops come without built in ethernet (personally I detest that, an<br> rj45 jack is not that thick that a laptop body can not be planned<br> around that, leaving some more room for e.g. NVMe sockets or simplify<br> cooling a bit, ultra-thin is IMHO not really in the end-users'<br> interest, but I digress).<br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> We need to standardized to the extent that we can on one wireless tech <br> (similar to Ethernet for wired) and a proposal is to use 802.11 since <br> that's selling in volume, driven by mobile hand sets.<br></blockquote><br> [SM] Sure 802.11 is likely to stay by virtue of being relatively<br> ubiquitous and by being generally already good enough for many use<br> cases (with road-maps for tackling more demanding use-cases, and I<br> very much include your fiwi proposal here).<br> <br> <br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #8ae234; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br> Bob<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #fcaf3e; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi Bob,<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"> On Oct 12, 2023, at 17:55, Robert McMahon via Nnagain <br> <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<br> Hi David,<br> The vendors I know don't roll their own os code either. The make their <br> own release still mostly based from Linux and they aren't tied to the <br> openwrt release process.<br> I think GUIs on CPEs are the wrong direction. Consumer network equipment <br> does best when it's plug and play. Consumers don't have all the skills <br> needed to manage an in home packet network that includes wifi.<br></blockquote> [SM] That is both true, and (currently?) unachievable. To run a<br> network connected to the internet securely requires to make a number<br> of policy decisions trading-off the required/desired connectivity<br> versus the cost in security (either cost as effort of maintaining<br> security or cost in an increase in attack surface).<br> The in-side the home situation, has IMHO drastically improved with<br> the availability of off-the-shelf mesh network gear from commercial<br> vendors, with easy to follow instructions and/or apps to find decent<br> AP placement.<br> For structured wiring, I would agree that requires both an unusual<br> skill set (even though doing structured wiring itself is not hard,<br> just doing it in a way that blends into an apartment without signaling<br> DIY-ness is more involved).<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"> I recently fixed a home network for my inlaws. It's a combo of <br> structured wire and WiFi APs. I purchased the latest equipment from <br> Amazon vs use the ISP provided equipment. I can do this reasonably well <br> because I'm familiar with the chips inside.<br> The online tech support started with trepidation as he was concerned <br> that the home owner, i.e me, wasn't as skilled as the ISP technicians. <br> He suggested we schedule that but I said we were good to go w/o one.<br></blockquote> [SM] What "online tech support"? From the AP vendor or from the ISP?<br> The latter might have a script recommending ISP technicians more for<br> commercial considerations than technical ones...<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"> He asked to speak to my father in law when we were all done. He told <br> him, "You're lucky to have a son in law that know what he's doing. My <br> techs aren't as good, and I really liked working with him too."<br> I say this not to brag, as many on this list could do the equivalent, <br> but to show that we really need to train lots of technicians on things <br> like RF and structured wiring. Nobody should be "lucky" to get a quality <br> in home network. We're not lucky to have a flush toilet anymore. This <br> stuff is too important to rely on luck.<br></blockquote> [SM] Mmmh, that got me thinking, maybe we should think about always<br> running network wiring parallel to electric cables so each power<br> socket could easily house an ethernet plug as well... (or one per room<br> to keep the cost lower and avoid overly much "dark" copper)? Sort of<br> put this into the building codes/best current practice documents... (I<br> understand starting now, will still only solve the issue over many<br> decades, but at least we would be making some inroads; and speaking of<br> decades, maybe putting fiber there instead of copper might be a more<br> future-oriented approach)?<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #e9b96e; padding-left: 1ex;"> Bob<br> On Oct 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:<br> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br> I don't know the numbers but a guess is that a majority of SoCs with <br> WiFi<br> radios aren't based on openwrt.<br> From what I've seen, the majority of APs out there are based on OpenWRT <br> or one<br> of the competing open projects, very few roll their own OS from scratch<br> I think many on this list use openwrt but<br> that may not be representative of the actuals. Also, the trend is less <br> sw in<br> a CPU forwarding plane and more hw, one day, linux at the CPEs may not <br> be<br> needed at all (if we get to remote radio heads - though this is highly<br> speculative.)<br> that is countered by the trend to do more (fancier GUI, media center, <br> etc) The<br> vendors all want to differentiate themselves, that's hard to do if it's <br> baked<br> into the chips<br> From my experience, sw is defined by the number & frequency of commits, <br> and<br> of timeliness to issues more than a version number or compile date. So <br> the<br> size and quality of the software staff can be informative.<br> I'm more interested in mfg node process then the mfg location & date as <br> the<br> node process gives an idea if the design is keeping up or not. Chips <br> designed<br> in 2012 are woefully behind and consume too much energy and generate too <br> much<br> heat. I think Intel provides this information on all its chips as an <br> example.<br> I'm far less concerned about the chips than the software. Security holes <br> are far<br> more likely in the software than the chips. The chips may limit the max<br> performance of the devices, but the focus of this is on the security, <br> not the<br> throughput or the power efficiency (I don't mind that extra info, but <br> what makes<br> some device unsafe to use isn't the age of the chips, but the age of the<br> software)<br> David Lang<br> Bob<br> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote:<br> There's also the concern about how do startups roll-out such a label for<br> their tech in the early iteration phase? How do they afford to do the<br> extra<br> work for the label vs. a big company (does this become a regulatory <br> moat?)<br> And let's say we have these labels. Will only consumers with the money <br> to<br> purchase the more expensive equipment that has more privacy and security<br> features buy that one - leaving those who cannot afford privacy and<br> security bad alternatives?<br> As far as security goes, I would argue that the easy answer is to ship<br> a current version of openwrt instead of a forked, ancient version, and<br> get their changes submitted upstream (or at least maintained against<br> upstream). It's a different paradigm than they are used to, and right<br> now the suppliers tend to also work with ancient versions of openwrt,<br> but in all the companies that I have worked at, it's proven to be less<br> ongoing work (and far less risk) to keep up with current versions than<br> it is to stick with old versions and then do periodic 'big jump'<br> upgrades.<br> it's like car maintinance, it seems easier to ignore your tires,<br> brakes, and oil changes, but the minimal cost of maintaining those<br> systems pays off in a big way over time<br> David Lang<br> Nnagain mailing list<br> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<br> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br> Nnagain mailing list<br> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<br> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br><hr><br> Nnagain mailing list<br> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<br> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><br></blockquote></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>