<div dir="ltr">Yeah, there were clearly visible Cisco APs, but I don't have a picture and can't recall the exact model numbers, but Jason might be able to, I guess.<div><br></div><div>And for that experts being wrong - mindboggling NOT, at all.</div><div><br></div><div>Most of the people at IETF were not interested about L4S for example - nobody I asked about it even knew about it at the event. Besides, obviously, L4S guys and the "Red team". Met 2 journalists (sic! TWO) and they told me they don't know about any other journalist at the event and obviously, they didn't know about L4S or bufferbloat/latency/jitter being a topic, at all. Jason knows one of these journalists, she promised to start looking at it...so I hope she does.</div><div><br></div><div>Having said that - most of the IETF people still believes that "It's speed, stupid!" (or bandwidth, at best)...not Stuart Cheshire's good ole maxim, with latency in it.</div><div><br></div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Skype: casioa5302ca<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 5:07 PM Dave Taht via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">As I noted also on the twitter thread for this, were I there, and dishonest, (particularly were gobs of money on the table) I could easily have permuted the bandwidth on both tests hugely upwards from a single laptop by running continuous speedtests. But speedtests are not what we do day in or out, and reflect normal usage not at all.<div><br></div><div>The 83% of people (experts!!!) that were wrong is ... mindboggling.<br><div><br></div><div>PS What wifi standard was at ietf? Is this still the old ciscos? The headline bandwidths claimed for any version of wifi drop dramatically at distance and with multiple users present. So it might have taken a couple laptops out of the thousand there to move the stats in a perverse direction, now that I think about it.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for doing this experiment! While there are certainly also cases were mass groupings of people totally saturate the underlying mac (more than the perceived bandwidth - I have seen congestion collapse and a sea of retransmits even in small wifi gatherings), the only number that seems a bit off in your test from a typical residential/small office is the roughly 3.5x1 ratio between down and up. I am willing (for now) to put that down to engineers doing actual work, rather than netflix. </div><div><br></div><div>I would so love to see more measurements like this at other wifi concentration points, in offices and coffee shops. Packet captures too!!!! </div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46 AM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p>On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a fun stat for you.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;color:black">At the IETF’s<span> </span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/118/" title="https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/118/" target="_blank">118th meeting</a><span> </span>last
week (Nov 4 – 10, 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there were 870 devices connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage:</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in;font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" type="disc">
<li style="color:black;margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<span style="font-size:14pt">Downstream peak ~750 Mbps</span><u></u><u></u></li><li style="color:black;margin-top:0in;margin-bottom:0in">
<span style="font-size:14pt">Upstream ~250 Mbps</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>From my pre-meeting Twitter poll (<a href="https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873</a>):<span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="color:black"><img border="0" width="593" height="290" style="width: 6.177in; height: 3.0208in;" id="m_-938136888680096910m_-7129791562365835753Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:ii_18bce8b7c3a4cff311" alt="A screenshot of a chat
Description automatically generated"></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: <a href="https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab</a> <br></div><div>Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos<br></div></div></div>
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