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<body><div dir="auto">Hi Jack,<br><br>My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware problem, hard to shake off million years of evolution. And IIRC during covid, didn't the IETF do online only meetings?<br><br>I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in the covid years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face to face meetings for some conditions, is all I am saying....</div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto">On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty <jack@3kitty.org> wrote:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a
policy decision about use of the Arpanet. First, Arpa Program
Managers, located on the East Coast of the US, were assigned
computer accounts on USC-ISIA, located on the West Coast in LA.
Thus to do their work, exchanging email, editting documents, and
such, they had to *use* the Arpanet to connect their terminals in
Washington to the PDP-10 in California - 3000 miles away.<br>
<br>
Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers
at Universities etc.) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP.
If your site was "on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet. If
you wanted your proposal for next year's research to be funded, you
had to submit your proposal using the net.<br>
<br>
This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to
making the Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool.<br>
<br>
JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss
when I joined the Research Staff. Lick had been at ARPA for a
while, promoting his vision of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in
the Arpanet as a first step. At MIT, Lick still had need for lots
of interactions with others. My assignment was to build and
operate the email system for Lick's group at MIT on our own PDP-10.
Lick had a terminal in his office and was online a lot. If email
didn't work, I heard about it. If the Arpanet didn't work, BBN
heard about it.<br>
<br>
This pressure was part of Arpa policy. Sometimes it's referred to
as "eating your own dog food" -- i.e., making sure your "dog" will
get the same kind of nutrition you enjoy. IMHO, that pressure
policy was important, perhaps crucial, to the success of the
Arpanet.<br>
<br>
In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made
through the use of the Arpanet. You can only do so much with email
and file interactions. Today, the possibilities for far richer
interactions are much more prevalent. But IMHO they are held back,
possibly because no one is feeling the pressure to "make it work".
Gigabit throughputs are common, but why does my video and audio
still break up...?<br>
<br>
It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the
IETF scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to
happen to make it work would happen? Perhaps...<br>
<br>
Even a "game" might drive progress. At Interop '92, we resurrected
the old "MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show
exhibit halls. The engineers in the control room above the floor
felt the pressure to make sure the Game continued to run. At the
time, the Internet itself was too slow for enjoyable gameplay at any
distance. Will the Internet 30 years later work?<br>
<br>
Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly
visible demo involving non-techie end users. An online meeting of
the UN General Assembly? Or some government bodies - US Congress,
British Parliament, etc.<br>
<br>
Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy,
to the engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might
have the ability and interest to "make it work".<br>
<br>
Jack<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:96DDD887-4AC2-4F11-9B49-5ED6FC3F5FA2@gmx.de">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi Jack,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via Nnagain <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net"><nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> wrote:
If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to all get together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings online ...?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
[SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things work better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only building trust and sympathy) than over any remote technology.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Did anyone measure latency? Does anyone measure throughput of "useful" traffic - e.g., excluding video/audio data that didn't arrive in time to be actually used on the screen or speaker?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
[SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Jack Haverty
On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">if they had not been all together they would have been consuming tons of video capacity doing video conference calls....
:-))
v
On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46 AM Livingood, Jason via Nnagain <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net"><nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> wrote:
On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a fun stat for you.
At the IETF’s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 – 10, 2023), there were over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there were 870 devices connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage:
• Downstream peak ~750 Mbps
• Upstream ~250 Mbps
From my pre-meeting Twitter poll (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873">https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873</a>):
<image001.png>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><div class='k9mail-signature'>-- <br>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</div></div></body>
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