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Hi Rohan,<br>
<br>
I have little experience in farming, but your description of the
environment sounds a lot like the conditions in industrial plants,
warehouses, etc.<br>
<br>
If you haven't already, it may be worth researching the history of
the MAP/TOP efforts in the 80s. These were systems developed by
industrial players specifically for use in industrial situations,
such as manufacturing plants, warehouses, distribution centers, et
al where there are lots of things that block or interfere with
signals. See, for example,
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Automation_Protocol">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Automation_Protocol</a><br>
<br>
MAP/TOP died out as Ethernet became the dominant LAN technology and
the market for MAP/TOP devices never developed. But there may be
some lessons learned then that would be helpful to you today.<br>
<br>
Jack Haverty<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/13/23 15:31, Rohan M via Nnagain
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEp6xi4Ufjm9uxJ8Nv6MajSw=7SaDB5ucPadKLigV7+PPzi1Xw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Hi All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of
the largest hydroponic glasshouse producers in the southern
hemisphere with ~100ha under glass. We predominantly focus
on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers and blueberries (the
latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse production is
typically 60% more water efficient than conventional
cropping, or said another way, it uses 1/3 of the water of
conventional cropping.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have several different environments that span large
distances and use a myriad of different technologies to
support them. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a
signal through a glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage
which is >90% water. Foliage is typically very dense and
layered which creates a perfect sink for the majority of
signals. (eg <a
href="https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg</a>
) </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Glasshouse environments:</div>
<div>In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies but up to
400m/1312ft) of centre paths that are up to 4m across and
concreted (eg <a
href="https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg</a>
) </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The typical temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from
about 20C (68F) to 45C (113F) - more in direct sun during
summer, with high humidity at times, this is a barrier for a
lot of devices, as it will push a processor idling at 50C
across the 95C threshold and cause it to crash.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3
unifi points (Flex HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but
we are trialling the unifi Mesh Pro AC points as they have
shown to cover larger areas. Wifi (or any signal) access
down rows more than about 5m off the centre path generally
is poor, but with points up high enough we have enough to
keep the fresnel zones clear around the APs. One problem
here is that we have to mount the APs on steel uprights,
which may or may not have hydronic heating tubes nearby.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wireless communication for moisture sensing is done by
proprietary systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a
gateway to the main network. These have poor propagation
past 50m in these environments due to the wavelengths and
the foliage, so sometimes do not register correctly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even though there is a 5g mobile repeater nearby (~1km
away), getting reception on any mobile network in a
glasshouse is generally nigh impossible. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warehouse/Packing environments:</div>
<div>Warehouse/Packing environments have a large amount of
industrial equipment for grading, packing, weighing and
sorting fruit for delivery and logistics. These environments
typically have a lot of metal on the general work floor
which reflects or grounds signals. The walls and ceiling are
made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches insulation foam (as
the whole area is temperature controlled), there is heavy
cement reinforced with rebar fire walls between major
sections, and a cement/concrete floor. The whole structure
acts as a Faraday's cage, so there are no signals going
outside, and inside, as mentioned, there is a lot of
industrial equipment. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Size of these environments approximates the same as
glasshouses - 600m x 300m typically. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi
devices, a lot of people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile
devices. 5g signal propagation in such areas is
non-existent, especially in rural areas. Boosters have been
tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping out
regularly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Getting any signal propagation across the environment is
a challenge. Typically how we handle this is by ceiling
mounted APs, but we find that without AP based SQM these
units experience bufferbloat, which causes calls to drop
out, or pause. The typical farmer mentality in these
instances is to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solved
the problem (even with the enormous stadium type units). The
next stage here is to try more APs in strategic locations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It should be noted that in some such environments there
are multiple very large, 16kva (or above) pumps which have
large magnetic fields despite isolation etc. The way we've
managed that is by having more density of points in those
areas, which improves things but doesn't solve them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Blueberry fields:</div>
<div>Blueberry fields are similar to glasshouses, plants grow
up to 1.7m (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, similar layout
to inside of a glasshouse, however larger areas (500m/1640ft
square is typical) with varying degrees of elevation
depending on the site. Getting a signal here is also a
challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh Pro AC units
at the top of treated pine poles around 2M up, three of
these units allow long distance wifi down the main paths
(circa 350-400m range each), and approximately 10m/32ft into
the blueberry rows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Typical applications here are tablets and phones for
voip. Density of client devices is much lower than the other
environments, with 20 clients typically per field at any
time. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited
use due to lack of ability to foster signal propagation and
the fact that these locations are rural, which means
infrastructure typically is poor in the area. </div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div>Rohan M</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at
11:44 PM Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">(I
am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience
can<br>
chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions
and pain<br>
points[2])<br>
<br>
I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any
major<br>
component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA,
(where<br>
starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to
give it a<br>
good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to
power, and<br>
too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other<br>
centralized requirements that make organic evolution and
solid support<br>
in remote environments dicy and expensive.<br>
<br>
I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient
subsidies,<br>
we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of
every<br>
suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the
cloud,<br>
rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of
gps and<br>
drones are being shown every day, along with satellite
weather and<br>
other forms of satellite analysis. [1]<br>
<br>
But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are
easily<br>
constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5
dollars or<br>
less:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=asc_df_B086MJGFVV/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=asc_df_B086MJGFVV/</a><br>
<br>
And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4
miles), at<br>
low complexity and power also.<br>
<br>
then there are things like amazon sidewalk:<br>
<a
href="https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011</a><br>
<br>
And airtags.<br>
<br>
[1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we
produce has<br>
recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of
nutritious<br>
minerals over the past 100 years. Please see:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831</a><br>
<br>
How smart is that?<br>
<br>
[2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the
water<br>
hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of
drought<br>
led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last
year.<br>
<br>
You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear
aimed at<br>
"the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half
moon bay.<br>
That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent,
the workers<br>
at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except
crab and<br>
squid.<br>
<br>
How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster,
too. I<br>
vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally....<br>
<br>
I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is
one thing,<br>
sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it
strategically,<br>
another.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
:( My old R&D campus is up for sale: <a
href="https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab</a><br>
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos<br>
</blockquote>
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<br>
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