<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Yes I agree, the epistemological challenges here are… incredibly non-trivial. When we start talking about arbiting truth vs misinformation, and building systems around this, it immediately turns to philosophical questions around what types of knowledge are subjective vs objective, and what it even means to “know" something. I often worry that the builders of these types of systems aren’t thinking about these types of things.<div><br></div><div>Also, when it comes to chatgpt, it’s always best to keep in mind the goal was to emulate a human conversation, with no guarantees (or even explicit design goals towards) useful or truthful information. See also one of my longtime favorite xkcds: <a href="https://xkcd.com/810/">https://xkcd.com/810/</a></div><div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 4, 2024, at 16:18, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Hmm, this seems non trivial. The epistemology that I try to use is based on the scientific method but I also use a lot of belief that others follow this method too.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Also, with the current trends in AI, it seems to me we're mostly creating ant mills vs knowledge and discovery.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="https://youtu.be/LEKwQxO4EZU?feature=shared" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://youtu.be/LEKwQxO4EZU?feature=shared</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">I asked ChatGPT if it behaved like an ant mill. It responded no. I then asked it to compare itself with and ant mill and basically said it behaved exactly like an ant mill.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Then I asked it some questions about Elon Musk and it always prefaced everything with, "Elon is a God."</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">I stopped using it after that. No knowledge to be found.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Bob</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Dear NNAgain’ers,<br>Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense<br>will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize<br>this is not NN-related and so if it isn’t of interest, I apologize<br>in advance. However as most of us have technology background here, my<br>sense is we generally have a better sense of the looming issue than<br>non-technical folks at the moment. Below I outline some of the<br>contours of the evolving problem space, and invite each of you to<br>share your thoughts as I sense the diversity of perspectives here<br>might help with brainstorming potential solutions necessary for civil<br>societies to continue:<br>Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where<br>inauthenticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that<br>that involves multiple forms of content including biometrics and more.<br>In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however<br>it’s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like the<br>U.S. where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to<br>play in verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something<br>have had public trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn’t<br>help that both politics and advertisement rely on presenting things as<br>100% authentic when they’re often only somewhat so (or, to be more<br>generous, mix facts with lots of beliefs).<br>Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a “home<br>field” advantage here because there is only one singular narrative -<br>and anyone who questions it can be fired/isolated,<br>imprisoned/disappeared, or killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to<br>include filtering, censorship, and repression - will be used to ensure<br>only one narrative (authentic or not, mostly likely the latter) is<br>seen by a majority of their population. Pluralistic societies will<br>have it much harder, and the last ten years will pale in comparison to<br>the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded by both media and<br>mediums of questionable authenticity.<br>Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional<br>People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM<br>data with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part<br>of the CRM, “out of band” questions could be included to do some<br>sort of additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was<br>who they claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by<br>larger concerns that SF’s software, give some of its features, could<br>be misused in ways not intended by them (think about ways akin to<br>Cambridge Analytica) and they were trying to figure out how they could<br>incorporate features to prevent actors from misusing/abusing their<br>software in ways not intended by them as a company.<br>2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see,<br>hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier.<br>Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation,<br>triangulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern<br>authenticity vs. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard.<br>Perhaps we need to consider standing up private sector Dun &<br>Bradstreet-like entities for identity and other important adjudicatory<br>functions - however that doesn’t immediately solve the issue of how<br>to help the public in a would experiencing a flood of questionable<br>content, information, and identities? And who “watches” the<br>adjudicators?<br>David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc. [1]<br>Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair [2] & Distinguished Fellow<br>Henry S. Stimson Center [3], Business Executives for National Security<br>[4]<br>Links:<br>------<br>[1]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.leaddoadapt.com/">https://www.leaddoadapt.com/</a><br>[2]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://napawash.org/fellow/305629">https://napawash.org/fellow/305629</a><br>[3]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.stimson.org/ppl/david-bray/">https://www.stimson.org/ppl/david-bray/</a><br>[4]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://bens.org/people/dr-david-bray/">https://bens.org/people/dr-david-bray/</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Nnagain mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br></blockquote><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Nnagain mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>