<div><div dir="auto">However there’s the asymmetry of power and voice - where folks can use repetition and cognitive easing around lies and just repeat, repeat, repeat and drown out the voice of others who lack the same access to digital megaphones. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Remember courts ask people to tell the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth. What manipulators of the inauthentic do is usually something where 2 of the 3 “truth asks” are done and the 3 is stretched. You might get the truth but not the whole truth - or the truth with disinformation/inauthenticness inserted too. </div></div><div><div dir="auto"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 20:12 David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm" target="_blank">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<br></div></div></div></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">that's where the reputation comes into play, if they are willing to burn a <br>
trusted reputation to lie, you can't stop them, but trusted reputations take <br>
time to build, so are not free.<br>
<br>
this will take time for people to learn, so it's not a short-term win (short <br>
term, I expect that there will be telltales that will show up through analysis, <br>
although it make take inspection of the camera that supposedly took the picture <br>
to find them all), but there is a need for trust, anonymity, and independence <br>
from a centralized authority (needed for anonymity)<br>
<br>
the novel Earthweb ( <a href="https://www.baen.com/earthweb-second-edition.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.baen.com/earthweb-second-edition.html</a> <br>
<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Earthweb-Second-Mark-Stiegler-ebook/dp/B079BKBHJ2/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Earthweb-Second-Mark-Stiegler-ebook/dp/B079BKBHJ2/</a> ) <br>
shows how such a reputation based system could work (for both legal and illegal <br>
activities)<br>
<br>
How do 'darkweb' type folks establish trust and avoid being burned? they have to <br>
have some sort of reputation based system (even if informal)<br>
<br>
David Lang<br>
<br>
On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, David Bray, PhD wrote:<br>
<br>
> Yes - however folks who do bad things rarely sign that they did bad<br>
> things... so how do we tackle bad actors?<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 9:30 PM David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm" target="_blank">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, David Bray, PhD wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Also signatures and the like only work for things where you actively<br>
>>> attest.<br>
>>><br>
>>> What if it's a supposed photo, video, or other claims that a person did<br>
>> (or<br>
>>> did not do) something. Sadly we know eyewitness testimony actually is<br>
>>> replete with errors... which is why heretofore "roll the video tape"<br>
>>> (you're at least a Gen X'er or older if you recall video tapes) has been<br>
>>> what courts relied upon:<br>
>>> <a href="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> What do we do if that's now questioned? Watermarking of photos, audio,<br>
>> and<br>
>>> videos can be overcome - and, sadly, may actually super-empower either<br>
>>> surveillance states or authoritarian states to "control" media. So free<br>
>> and<br>
>>> pluralistic societies will be especially challenged here?<br>
>><br>
>> signing the images and then the reputation of the person doing the signing.<br>
>><br>
>> now, this doesn't solve the court problem, but there I would say there<br>
>> needs to<br>
>> be multiple sources in any case.<br>
>><br>
>> David Lang<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2024 at 5:08 PM David Lang via Nnagain <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> signatures work, but how do you know what signatures to trust? the<br>
>> current<br>
>>>> approach of 'trust signatures where they have paid one of a few<br>
>> companies'<br>
>>>> is<br>
>>>> not going to work. There will need to be some sort of decentralized<br>
>>>> reputation<br>
>>>> system where you can pick who you trust<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Yes, some people will chose to trust people who feed them fakes. That is<br>
>>>> better<br>
>>>> than giving any one entity the ability to declare anything as "true,<br>
>> don't<br>
>>>> you<br>
>>>> dare question it" (as we have seen over the last few years)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> David Lang<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, Dave Taht via Nnagain wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 15:17:12 -0500<br>
>>>>> From: Dave Taht via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
>>>>> To: Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard<br>
>>>> this<br>
>>>>> time! <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
>>>>> Cc: Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com" target="_blank">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NNagain] The growing challenges of discerning authentic<br>
>> vs.<br>
>>>>> inauthentic information and identity<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Basically I am interested in the intersection between politics and the<br>
>>>>> internet in the context of this list, which is broader than the NN<br>
>>>>> issue. So I appreciate monday conversation starters like these.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> In my case, I often have to revert to thinking about the present in<br>
>>>>> terms of what used to be science fiction. "Interface" - upon<br>
>>>>> cogitating about what the coming election will look like came to mind<br>
>>>>> - <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Interface-Stephen-Bury/dp/0553572407</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> When I first saw the deepfakes Pr0n phenomenon a few years ago, I had<br>
>>>>> my oh-ghu moment, as I realized once tools like that got into<br>
>>>>> everyone's hands the truth and authenticity of any form of media begin<br>
>>>>> to vanish, and the recent rise of the LLMs *almost* put the finish to<br>
>>>>> it. Thankfully the LLMs (so far) have a terrible tendency to<br>
>>>>> hallucinate which is often easily detectable, and overall, the<br>
>>>>> technoliterati have managed to expel really bad ideas like<br>
>>>>> crypto-grift, web3, and so on in the last few years. Web3 investment<br>
>>>>> is down 70% this year...<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I now wish very much that the concept of "whuffie" existed in the real<br>
>>>>> world, but the flight to mastodon, twitter's addition of community<br>
>>>>> notes, most of newspapers moving to a for-pay model, and in general,<br>
>>>>> the innoculation of the populace at large to distrust everything they<br>
>>>>> learn on line is well underway which I find some comfort in.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Promoting widespread skepticism and disbelief are powerful tools, but<br>
>>>>> trying to find guidelines to what is actually truthful harder. For<br>
>>>>> example, I read wikipedia's talk page on everything controversial. Too<br>
>>>>> few do that. I recently sat through fox news with my mom, because her<br>
>>>>> blood pressure was too low, and it served well to "improve" that, and<br>
>>>>> me, take a lisinopril.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Life's just a ride, tho, you know?<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_and_Out_in_the_Magic_Kingdom</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 9:32 AM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain<br>
>>>>> <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Dear NNAgain’ers,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Today on a different listserv, I joined a discussion on what I sense<br>
>>>> will be a pressing issue across multiple sectors in 2024. I recognize<br>
>> this<br>
>>>> is not NN-related and so if it isn’t of interest, I apologize in<br>
>> advance.<br>
>>>> However as most of us have technology background here, my sense is we<br>
>>>> generally have a better sense of the looming issue than non-technical<br>
>> folks<br>
>>>> at the moment. Below I outline some of the contours of the evolving<br>
>> problem<br>
>>>> space, and invite each of you to share your thoughts as I sense the<br>
>>>> diversity of perspectives here might help with brainstorming potential<br>
>>>> solutions necessary for civil societies to continue:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Premise: We are at the precipice of an extended era where<br>
>>>> inauthenticity vs. authenticity will be difficult to discern, that that<br>
>>>> involves multiple forms of content including biometrics and more.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> In isolated pockets, governments are becoming aware of this - however<br>
>>>> it’s going to be really difficult for pluralistic societies like the<br>
>> U.S.<br>
>>>> where any of the Estates that traditionally would have a role to play in<br>
>>>> verifying the authentic vs. inauthentic nature of something have had<br>
>> public<br>
>>>> trust in them as arbiters eroding. And it doesn’t help that both<br>
>> politics<br>
>>>> and advertisement rely on presenting things as 100% authentic when<br>
>> they’re<br>
>>>> often only somewhat so (or, to be more generous, mix facts with lots of<br>
>>>> beliefs).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Not supporting autocracies, however they have a bit of a “home field”<br>
>>>> advantage here because there is only one singular narrative - and anyone<br>
>>>> who questions it can be fired/isolated, imprisoned/disappeared, or<br>
>>>> killed/executed. Tools of such regimes, to include filtering,<br>
>> censorship,<br>
>>>> and repression - will be used to ensure only one narrative (authentic or<br>
>>>> not, mostly likely the latter) is seen by a majority of their<br>
>> population.<br>
>>>> Pluralistic societies will have it much harder, and the last ten years<br>
>> will<br>
>>>> pale in comparison to the challenges of sensemaking in a world flooded<br>
>> by<br>
>>>> both media and mediums of questionable authenticity.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Back in 2019-2020, I did my darnest to connect Pablo and an additional<br>
>>>> People-Centered Internet expert with Salesforce that has a lot of CRM<br>
>> data<br>
>>>> with the proposal that SF could provide a feature where, as part of the<br>
>>>> CRM, “out of band” questions could be included to do some sort of<br>
>>>> additional level of trust that the entity on the other end was who they<br>
>>>> claimed to be. Unfortunately that pitch was overshadowed by larger<br>
>> concerns<br>
>>>> that SF’s software, give some of its features, could be misused in ways<br>
>> not<br>
>>>> intended by them (think about ways akin to Cambridge Analytica) and they<br>
>>>> were trying to figure out how they could incorporate features to prevent<br>
>>>> actors from misusing/abusing their software in ways not intended by<br>
>> them as<br>
>>>> a company.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> 2024 is going to be hard. Manipulation of what people appear to see,<br>
>>>> hear, sense - and thus know - is becoming sadly easier.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Meanwhile understanding of the importance of triangulation,<br>
>>>> triangulation, triangulation from different perspective to discern<br>
>>>> authenticity vs. inauthenticity remains time-consuming and hard.<br>
>> Perhaps we<br>
>>>> need to consider standing up private sector Dun & Bradstreet-like<br>
>> entities<br>
>>>> for identity and other important adjudicatory functions - however that<br>
>>>> doesn’t immediately solve the issue of how to help the public in a would<br>
>>>> experiencing a flood of questionable content, information, and<br>
>> identities?<br>
>>>> And who “watches” the adjudicators?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> David Bray, PhD Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures, Inc.<br>
>>>>>> Loomis Innovation Council Co-Chair & Distinguished Fellow<br>
>>>>>> Henry S. Stimson Center, Business Executives for National Security<br>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --<br>
>>>>> 40 years of net history, a couple songs:<br>
>>>>> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E</a><br>
>>>>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos<br>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>> Nnagain mailing list<br>
>>>>> <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>>>>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> Nnagain mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>>>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
></blockquote></div></div>
</div>