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<p>You are right, a simple expression of the goal is almost
certainly a far better way to express a regulation than an
endlessly detailed enumeration of things.</p>
<p>My concerns arise from a variety of sources.</p>
<p>First is the natural inclination of some large organizations to
use regulatory language as a weapon, often twisting inadequately
detailed expressions of intent around a Procrustean iron bed of
regulatory definitions.</p>
<p>Second is that the US Supreme Court seems to be tending to cast
disdain on the expertise of regulatory bodies, such as the FCC, to
find sensible ways through difficult and ambiguous situations.
(This legal stuff tends to go under the header of "Chevron
deference" - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/chevron_deference">https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/chevron_deference</a> )
Personally, I'd rather that smart people at the FCC figure this
out rather than a bunch of j-random Congress critters.<br>
</p>
<p>Third is that sometimes it is useful to have a bit of financial
or competitive fire to push innovation or to impede ill use.
(Imagine if sending emails had a cost - that could have [perhaps]
have slowed the rise of spam.) So perhaps a small amount of
non-neutrality could act as a driver or catalyst.<br>
</p>
<p>I am intrigued by the possibility of obtaining better efficiency
from the net - by using underused bandwidth (hence my example of
the spare space where a small IP packet does not fully occupy a
minimum sized Ethernet frame.) Some of these ideas could cause
streams to piggyback on one another (such as how SMS messaging
kinda piggybacked into the empty spaces of telco signalling
protocols.) We tend to focus our attention of big fat flows, like
entertainment video or gaming, but there are a lot of small flows
that could ride, with adequately reliability, for essentially no
technical cost. These could include a lot of home, security, or
medical monitoring stuff.) This is hard to articulate - but there
are real life analogies, such as the notion of van-pooling to
airports, where a single vehicle carries diverse loads/passengers
that have little relationship to one another except that they are
traveling to and from roughly the same locations.)</p>
<p>A while back I wrote some notes about network measuring tools
such as iperf. One of the things that struck me was the number of
bits that wrap even the smallest of packets. (For instance -
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.iwl.com/blog/counting-bits">https://www.iwl.com/blog/counting-bits</a> ) For video that overhead
is negligible, but for some forms of traffic (e.g. security
alarms) that overhead can add up.</p>
<p>And yes, I am stepping dangerously close to notions of
multiplexing within packets or at least within one of our most
common wrappers for IP packets, Ethernet frames.<br>
</p>
<p> --karl--<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/15/24 5:55 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">An interpretation of the intent might be not so
much a prohibition of various grades of service but that all
grades are available on the same terms to all comers.
<div><br>
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<div>v</div>
<div><br>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 15, 2024 at
5:43 PM Karl Auerbach via Nnagain <<a
href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div>
<p>As a matter of drafting the FCC has left some potholes:</p>
<p>"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access
Service] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis of
Internet content, applications, or services' would 'impair
or degrade' other content, applications, or services which
are not given the same treatment,"</p>
<p>That phrase "speed up" is too vague. Does it conflict
with active or fair queue management? Does it prohibit
things that some Ethernet NIC "offloads" do (but which
could be done by a provider) such as TCP data aggregation
(i.e. the merging of lots of small TCP segments into one
big one)? Does it prohibit insertion of an ECN bit that
would have the effect of slowing a sender of packets?
Might it preclude a provider "helpfully" dropping stale
video packets that would arrive at a users video rendering
codec too late to be useful? Could there be an issue with
selective compression? Or, to really get nerdy - given
that a lot of traffic uses Ethernet frames as a model,
there can be a non-trivial amount of hidden, usually
unused, bandwidth in that gap between the end of tiny IP
packets and the end of minimum length Ethernet frames.
(I've seen that space used for things like license
management.) Or might this impact larger path issues,
such as routing choices, either dynamic or based on
contractual relationships - such as conversational voice
over terrestrial or low-earth-orbit paths while background
file transfers are sent via fat, but large latency paths
such as geo-synch satellite? If an ISP found a means of
blocking spam from being delivered, would that violate the
rules? (Same question for blocking of VoIP calls from
undesirable sources. It may also call into question even
the use of IP address blacklists or reverse path
algorithms that block traffic coming from places where it
has no business coming from.)<br>
</p>
<p>The answers may be obvious to tech folks here but in the
hands of troublesome lawyers (I'm one of those) these
ambiguities could be elevated to be real headaches.</p>
<p>These may seem like minor or even meaningless nits, but
these are the kinds of things that can be used by lawyers
(again, like me) to tie regulatory bodies into knots,
which often a goal of some large organizations that do not
like regulation.<br>
</p>
<p>In addition, I can't put my finger on it, but I am
sensing that without some flexibility the FCC neutrality
rules may be creating a kind of no cost, tragedy of the
commons situation. Sometimes a bit of friction - cost -
can be useful to either incentivize improvements and
invention or to make things (like spam) less
desirable/more expensive to abusers.<br>
</p>
<p> --karl--<br>
</p>
<div>On 5/10/24 7:31 AM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>"Net neutrality proponents argued that these
separate lanes for different kinds of traffic would
degrade performance of traffic that isn't favored. The
final FCC order released yesterday addresses that
complaint. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"We clarify that a BIAS [Broadband Internet Access
Service] provider's decision to speed up 'on the basis
of Internet content, applications, or services' would
'impair or degrade' other content, applications, or
services which are not given the same treatment," the
FCC's final order said. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The "impair or degrade" clarification means that
speeding up is banned because the no-throttling rule
says that ISPs "shall not impair or degrade lawful
Internet traffic on the basis of Internet content,
application, or service."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/05/fcc-explicitly-prohibits-fast-lanes-closing-possible-net-neutrality-loophole/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/05/fcc-explicitly-prohibits-fast-lanes-closing-possible-net-neutrality-loophole/</a><br>
</div>
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<div>All the best,</div>
<div><br>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frantisek
(Frank) Borsik</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a
href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Signal,
Telegram, WhatsApp: <a
href="tel:+421%20919%20416%20714" value="+421919416714" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+421919416714</a> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">iMessage,
mobile: <a
href="tel:+420%20775%20230%20885" value="+420775230885" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">+420775230885</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Skype:
casioa5302ca</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a
href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a></p>
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<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:</div>
<div>
<div>Vint Cerf</div>
<div>Google, LLC</div>
<div>1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor</div>
<div>Reston, VA 20190</div>
<div>+1 (571) 213 1346<br>
</div>
<div><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>until further notice</div>
<div><br>
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