[Rpm] [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA
David P. Reed
dpreed at deepplum.com
Tue Jan 10 12:36:57 EST 2023
On time-sync: Every smartphone sold today can have their clocks synced, both in rate and count value, using GPS that every smartphone has.
So I think the problem of no clock sync is based on the fact that NTP and PTP are so very, very ancient. And the tooling (iperf and netperf) don't have much ambition (mcmahon being the exception).
I speak on this based on my experience implementing nanosecond accuracy clock sync among multiple computers in a datacenter at TidalScale (not using PTP, because the hardware is so unstandardized and the driver support for PTP is terrible, even in Linux), and also using clock sync to test software defined radio transceivers in my hobby radios. You can do better than GPS, but frankly, GPS is enough to get a stable synchronized clock outside the datacenter context.
The real issue is that the gear that ISP's provide for SMB and residential access is pretty cheap and minimal - they don't provide GPS-accurate clock timestamps. They could, but this is typical industry penny-pinching.
Maybe Comcast Research might fund development of devices that are inexpensive, use GPS timesync, and provide end-to-end performance characterization tools in the form of a $100 SBC plus a good performance testing suite?
This would let us characterize Starlink, too.
On Monday, January 9, 2023 2:13pm, "rjmcmahon" <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com> said:
> My biggest barrier is the lack of clock sync by the devices, i.e. very
> limited support for PTP in data centers and in end devices. This limits
> the ability to measure one way delays (OWD) and most assume that OWD is
> 1/2 and RTT which typically is a mistake. We know this intuitively with
> airplane flight times or even car commute times where the one way time
> is not 1/2 a round trip time. Google maps & directions provide a time
> estimate for the one way link. It doesn't compute a round trip and
> divide by two.
> For those that can get clock sync working, the iperf 2 --trip-times
> options is useful.
> enable the measurement of end to end write to read latencies (client
> and server clocks must be synchronized)
> > I have many kvetches about the new latency under load tests being
> > designed and distributed over the past year. I am delighted! that they
> > are happening, but most really need third party evaluation, and
> > calibration, and a solid explanation of what network pathologies they
> > do and don't cover. Also a RED team attitude towards them, as well as
> > thinking hard about what you are not measuring (operations research).
> > I actually rather love the new cloudflare speedtest, because it tests
> > a single TCP connection, rather than dozens, and at the same time folk
> > are complaining that it doesn't find the actual "speed!". yet... the
> > test itself more closely emulates a user experience than speedtest.net
> > does. I am personally pretty convinced that the fewer numbers of flows
> > that a web page opens improves the likelihood of a good user
> > experience, but lack data on it.
> > To try to tackle the evaluation and calibration part, I've reached out
> > to all the new test designers in the hope that we could get together
> > and produce a report of what each new test is actually doing. I've
> > tweeted, linked in, emailed, and spammed every measurement list I know
> > of, and only to some response, please reach out to other test designer
> > folks and have them join the rpm email list?
> > My principal kvetches in the new tests so far are:
> > 0) None of the tests last long enough.
> > Ideally there should be a mode where they at least run to "time of
> > first loss", or periodically, just run longer than the
> > industry-stupid^H^H^H^H^H^Hstandard 20 seconds. There be dragons
> > there! It's really bad science to optimize the internet for 20
> > seconds. It's like optimizing a car, to handle well, for just 20
> > seconds.
> > 1) Not testing up + down + ping at the same time
> > None of the new tests actually test the same thing that the infamous
> > rrul test does - all the others still test up, then down, and ping. It
> > was/remains my hope that the simpler parts of the flent test suite -
> > such as the tcp_up_squarewave tests, the rrul test, and the rtt_fair
> > tests would provide calibration to the test designers.
> > we've got zillions of flent results in the archive published here:
> > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/found_in_flent/
> > ps. Misinformation about iperf 2 impacts my ability to do this.
> > The new tests have all added up + ping and down + ping, but not up +
> > down + ping. Why??
> > The behaviors of what happens in that case are really non-intuitive, I
> > know, but... it's just one more phase to add to any one of those new
> > tests. I'd be deliriously happy if someone(s) new to the field
> > started doing that, even optionally, and boggled at how it defeated
> > their assumptions.
> > Among other things that would show...
> > It's the home router industry's dirty secret than darn few "gigabit"
> > home routers can actually forward in both directions at a gigabit. I'd
> > like to smash that perception thoroughly, but given our starting point
> > is a gigabit router was a "gigabit switch" - and historically been
> > something that couldn't even forward at 200Mbit - we have a long way
> > to go there.
> > Only in the past year have non-x86 home routers appeared that could
> > actually do a gbit in both directions.
> > 2) Few are actually testing within-stream latency
> > Apple's rpm project is making a stab in that direction. It looks
> > highly likely, that with a little more work, crusader and
> > go-responsiveness can finally start sampling the tcp RTT, loss and
> > markings, more directly. As for the rest... sampling TCP_INFO on
> > windows, and Linux, at least, always appeared simple to me, but I'm
> > discovering how hard it is by delving deep into the rust behind
> > crusader.
> > the goresponsiveness thing is also IMHO running WAY too many streams
> > at the same time, I guess motivated by an attempt to have the test
> > complete quickly?
> > B) To try and tackle the validation problem:ps. Misinformation about
> > iperf 2 impacts my ability to do this.
> > In the libreqos.io project we've established a testbed where tests can
> > be plunked through various ISP plan network emulations. It's here:
> > https://payne.taht.net (run bandwidth test for what's currently hooked
> > up)
> > We could rather use an AS number and at least a ipv4/24 and ipv6/48 to
> > leverage with that, so I don't have to nat the various emulations.
> > (and funding, anyone got funding?) Or, as the code is GPLv2 licensed,
> > to see more test designers setup a testbed like this to calibrate
> > their own stuff.
> > Presently we're able to test:
> > flent
> > netperf
> > iperf2
> > iperf3
> > speedtest-cli
> > crusader
> > the broadband forum udp based test:
> > https://github.com/BroadbandForum/obudpst
> > trexx
> > There's also a virtual machine setup that we can remotely drive a web
> > browser from (but I didn't want to nat the results to the world) to
> > test other web services.
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
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