<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 77.95pt 1.0in 77.95pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Sebastian
Moeller via Starlink<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 3:12 AM<br>
To: rjmcmahon<br>
Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink; IETF IPPM WG; jf@jonathanfoulkes.com; libreqos;
Cake List; Rpm; bloat<br>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare'schristmas
present</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Hi Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 21:02, rjmcmahon via Bloat
<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A
semi at 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume
is larger.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> [SM] I am not sure whether answering the "why" is
likely to getting us closer to remedy the situation. IMHO we are unlikely to
change that just as we are unlikely to change the equally debatable use of
"bandwidth" as synonym for "maximal capacity"... These two
ships have sailed no matter how much shouting at clouds is going to happen ;)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] I
hope that this not true, however I am not doubting your assertion! </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> The capacity of a channel of bandwidth W (in its simplest
form) is well-known to be:<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>C =
W*log2(1 + P/N)in units of bits/sec<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>There is
no such thing generally as “maximal capacity”, only “capacity
as a function of the parameters of the channel P, N, and W” which turns
out to be the “maximum error-free (very important!) rate of information
transfer” given the power (P) of the transmission and the power (N) of
the noise in that channel of bandwidth W. </span></font></i></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>My theory about the way is, this is entirely marketing driven, both
device manufacturers/ISPs and end-users desire to keep things simple so ideally
a single number and a catchy name... "Speed" as in top-speed was
already a well known quantity for motor vehicles that consumers as a group had
accepted to correlate with price. Now purist will say that "speed" is
already well-defined as distance/time and "amount of data" is not a
viable distance measure (how many bits are there in a meter?), but since when
has marketing and the desire for simply single-number "quality
indicators" ever cared much for the complexities of the real world?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> Also when remembering the old analog modem and ISDN days, at that
time additional capacity truly was my main desirable, so marketing by max
capacity was relevant to me independent of how this was called, I would not be
amazed if I was not alone with that view. I guess that single measure and the
wrong name simply stuck...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] As
I recall the old analog modem days, modems were “labeled” by their achievable
data rates, e.g. “this is a 14.4 kbps modem” and the notion of
achieving channel capacity was quite well-known in that people actually
realized that at 56 kbps, modems were nearly at the capacity of those mile-long
twisted-pair copper wires to the CO with 3kHz bandwidth low-pass filters on the
end and they could stop trying to build faster ones </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> </span></font></i></b><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Personally I try to use rate instead of speed or bandwidth, but I note
that I occasionally fail without even noticing it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Technically I agree that one way latency is more closely related to
"speed" as between any two end-points there is always a path the
information travels that has a "true" length, so speed could be
defined as network-path-length/OWD, but that would only be the average speed
over the path... I am not sure how informative or marketable this wuld be for
end-users though ;)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] Again,
transit time is only one component of latency, and one that could be accounted
for by simply stating the “minimal achievable latency” for any
given channel is the transit time of the information. Information simply can
not flow faster than the speed of light in this universe as we understand it
today, so EVERY communication channel has a non-zero transit time from source
to destination. </span></font></i></b><b><i><font color=black face=Wingdings><span
style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> Comparing latency to “speed of
transmission” is just not useful IMO for just this reason. IMO, a more
useful concept of latency is the excess transit time over the theoretical
minimum that results from all the real-world “interruptions” in the
transmission path(s) including things like regeneration of optical signals in
long cables, switching of network layer protocols in gateways (header manipulation
above layer 4), and yes, of course, buffering in switches and routers </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> These are things that can be “minimized” by
appropriate system design (the topic of these threads actually!). The only way
to decrease transit time is to “go wireless everywhere, eliminate our
atmosphere, and then get physically closer to each other”! </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> Like it or not, we live in a Lorentz-ian space-time
continuum also know as “our world” </span></font></i></b><b><i><font
color=black face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings;color:black;
font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><b><i><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><br>
RR </span></font></i></b><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> Sebastian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> Bob<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> HNY Dave and all the rest,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> results. This one looks like a good start.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only,
up<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an
IQrouter Pro<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can’t
deliver<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the
targets. My<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> local loop is pretty congested.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Here’s the latest Cloudflare test:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> And an Ookla test run just afterward:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to
other tests<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Jonathan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm
<rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test
here:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> https://speed.cloudflare.com/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> I would really appreciate some independent verification of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it
appears - as<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically
understate the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out
being<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load
, where<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too
many,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects
(their<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small
and not<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but
I'm pretty<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads
than that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> There's no way to change the test to run longer either.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared
as usual to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know
if they<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with
fq_codel or cake,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> correctly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> Love Always,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> The Grinch<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> --<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia
would work:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>>
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> <image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> Rpm mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Rpm mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> Bloat mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Starlink mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>