[Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6

Fri Mar 4 12:07:28 EST 2022

> Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana

But it can serve the leaders of government and the resistance in communicating with each other and the outside world if normal connectivity becomes unavailable.

________________________________
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz>
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 1:44 AM
To: David Lang <david at lang.hm>; Mike Puchol <mike at starlink.sx>
Cc: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6

Got you there David, and didn't really mean your contribution in the whole situation. As you point out, anything in comms in inherently dual use.

And I think we do have a duty to warn if we see that technology that's out there might become a risk to those who choose to use it.

In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places.

Another perspective yet: So far, international experience shows that the Internet is remarkably robust when it comes to powers that be wanting to shut it down. It's designed to route around holes and cuts. Unless you depend on a small number of identifiable fibre cables out, like Tonga does, it's pretty difficult to cut you off completely. I very much doubt that anyone has a complete may of fibre routes in the Ukraine, let alone the Russians. There'll probably be people out there near the borders to Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland - and probably even to Russia - stringing clandestine fibre cables across in order to add resilience to their networks. There'll also be countless people within Ukraine's border regions who have mobile connectivity into their neighbouring countries that can be put to good use transparently. We're talking about a pretty tech-savvy population here... Add wi-fi and a large number of satellite TV dishes into the mix, and you'll get my drift.

But even so, Russia doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to disrupt the Internet in Ukraine, at least not just yet. Why? Maybe because the assumption that the Internet works against them isn't true from their perspective. Say you're in Kyiv. Hearing on the grapevine that Kherson has fallen to the Russians may be one thing, easily dismissed as war propaganda. Actually seeing pictures from the city and getting the local perspective from people you know is far more likely to make you think that your own resistance may be futile. It all feeds into the hype and panic, and creates a fertile ground for misinformation and fake news, while giving a perfect platform for Russia to communicate with its own units in the field. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of them used Ukranian SIM cards on their phones. I know there's already been a drive among Ukrainian mobile operators to get people to report captured phones so they can be deactivated.

On 4/03/2022 9:41 pm, David Lang wrote:
There isn't a method of communication (or for that matter, any other tool that
I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the arts)

If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military
purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope nobody else
does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a head start.

So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from (ab)using
it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys will know
how to use it.

This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of the news
articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is
painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong before, I will
be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the open, not just
in military circles.

getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs

As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's going to be
used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said infrastructure,
and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually prevent it
(other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have a track
record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure (via
cyber, kinetic, or legal means)

In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any significant
scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all too likely
to happen.

and back on my soapbox

In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, controlled
by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter how much
they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the communication if
the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the process of
trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people

David Lang

On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote:

> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300
> From: Mike Puchol <mike at starlink.sx><mailto:mike at starlink.sx>
> To: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz><mailto:u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
>
> IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become classified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplies.
>
> Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, “why do you provide internet in slums, don’t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before internet?”.
>
> The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at “doing internet”, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don’t know how to “do" clean water or healthcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know.
>
> Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report, which stated:
>
> "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole”.
>
> Many news outlets picked on this to conclude “The UN declares internet a basic human right” - which is not what the report says (full text here: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf)__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeIatGUP0$>. What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate “non-official” information.
>
> Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outweigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz><mailto:u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz>, wrote:
>> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me.
>> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe.
>> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a simple good-bad scheme.
>> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it.
>> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote:
>>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here.
>>>
>>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operations" context.
>>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided).
>>>
>>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants?
>>>
>>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail?
>>>
>>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace"
>>>
>>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there from accessing PayPal, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-request at lists.bufferbloat.net> said:
>>>
>>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to
>>>> starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom at evslin.com<mailto:tom at evslin.com>)
>>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
>>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
>>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500
>>>> From: <tom at evslin.com><mailto:tom at evslin.com>
>>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan at nathan.io><mailto:nathan at nathan.io>, "'David Lang'"
>>>> <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result
>>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com><mailto:23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing altho we
>>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on the call but
>>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AND I had a
>>>> choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan
>>>> Owens
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM
>>>> To: David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also finally
>>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david at lang.hm<mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> <mailto:david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with no
>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other participants)
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced
>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to
>>>>> down.
>>>>>
>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
>>>>> <Jason_Livingood at comcast.com<mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com> <mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd be
>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy test at
>>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht"
>>>> <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> <mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht at gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com> <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> <mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> <mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeJ4cWlI4$>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST)
>>>> From: David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> To: Nathan Owens <nathan at nathan.io><mailto:nathan at nathan.io>
>>>> Cc: David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>,
>>>> "starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result
>>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46 at ynat.uz><mailto:87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46 at ynat.uz>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t
>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also
>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other
>>>> participants)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced
>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to
>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood at comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink,
>>>> it'd be
>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy
>>>> test
>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" <
>>>>>> starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht at gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST)
>>>> From: David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> To: David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan at nathan.io><mailto:nathan at nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>,
>>>> "starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result
>>>> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5 at ynat.uz><mailto:sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5 at ynat.uz>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> and the irtt
>>>>
>>>> irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t
>>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also
>>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while
>>>> with
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other
>>>>>>> participants)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced
>>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to
>>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
>>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood at comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over
>>>> Starlink, it'd be
>>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the
>>>> easy
>>>>>>> test
>>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht"
>>>> <
>>>>>>> starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht at gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000
>>>> From: Larry Press <lpress at csudh.edu><mailto:lpress at csudh.edu>
>>>> To: Mike Puchol <mike at starlink.sx><mailto:mike at starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>,
>>>> David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: "starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049 at BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com><mailto:BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049 at BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
>>>>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>
>>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort
>>>> required to strike.
>>>>
>>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalists to
>>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, making the
>>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians.
>>>>
>>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine is large and
>>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-registration in
>>>> California/Nevada
>>>> (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeClAUX5S$>). If
>>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Ukraine.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike
>>>> Puchol <mike at starlink.sx><mailto:mike at starlink.sx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM
>>>> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>; David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many people who
>>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at, so I really
>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved massively
>>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Russia with a
>>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included decoding the
>>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target.
>>>>
>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort
>>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks, decrypt
>>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. The same
>>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an aircraft high
>>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the
>>>> satellite.
>>>>
>>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect & locate the
>>>> 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this can be
>>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the source. You must
>>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough to justify a
>>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough SNR to
>>>> demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an
>>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form of radio
>>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly strike any
>>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targeted by just
>>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the military, and
>>>> Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear
>>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starlink uplink
>>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the invasion
>>>> began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side of the
>>>> terminal.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david at lang.hm><mailto:david at lang.hm>, wrote:
>>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink dishes
>>>>
>>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directional, so
>>>> they aren't great targets.
>>>>
>>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them, and are
>>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more missles
>>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory)
>>>>
>>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a threat, but
>>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why the dishes
>>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to be good at
>>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals.
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500
>>>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>
>>>> To: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>>
>>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with
>>>> us, also, on this list.
>>>>
>>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeHz2pCfe$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeMOCwUwR$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$>
>>>>
>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>>>
>> --
>> ****************************************************************
>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>>
>> School of Computer Science
>>
>> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>>
>> The University of Auckland
>> u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz>
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich__;fg!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeMBROiEE$>
>> ****************************************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$>
>

--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel at auckland.ac.nz>
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich/__;fg!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeEcsMKQl$>
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