[Starlink] It's still the starlink latency...
Eugene Y Chang
eugene.chang at ieee.org
Wed Sep 28 14:49:17 EDT 2022
FYI, I believe the old 150ms was at the threshold where a person would hear the telephony far-end echo. At the (approx) 250ms from the geos, the far-end echo would interfere with speaking.
What is interesting is the speed of sound in air (STP) is about 1ms/foot (about 35 cm). On a big stage that is about 60 ms stage left to stage right. The internet transporting sound would be awesome without jitter.
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang at ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
> On Sep 27, 2022, at 11:54 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Gene,
>
>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 00:46, Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang at ieee.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sebastian,
>> Good to know. I haven’t had time to follow all the work going on globally.
>> I was only commenting on how the ISP support team behaves.
>> How do we bring this better attitude to the US.
>
> [SM] Good question. In the EU it was actually actually an official EU regulation by the european council and the parliament (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015R2120&from=de) that is the basis for the national regulators to act.
>
>> Sadly the FCC seems stuck accommodating the big ISPs.
>
> [SM] Similar in Germany the regulator always sees to see itself both as represntative of the end-user and at the same time as partner of the ISPs and since ISP have better communication channels to the regulators they also often seem to accomodate the big ISPs. However if the relevant law is clear and unambiguous they act according to it.
> Not sure though whether "go through the politicians" to improve the directives of the FCC is a better approach given the state of USian politics. However it should be conceptually easy to convince politicians of the issue, it is not that they do not use the internet themselves and might be open for a demonstration (nicely balanced between the two sides of the aisle to avoid making this a partisan issue).
>
>> Of course, we want the FCC, the ISPs, and the networking world to go beyond speedtest.
>
> [SM] +1; for all my praise for the local regulators action, they also have dropped the ball on acceptable latency; they just defined the minimum internet access people living in Germany are entitled to by law (something like 10/1.7 Mbps but up to 150ms latency, all measured against the regulators testing systems in the internet), the rates while not great seem OK (as an absolute floor) but 150ms latency? What where they thinking? I bet this comes from the ITU's old characterization of mouth to ear latencies <= 150ms being OK, ignoring that mouth to ear contains more than pure network delay and that if two of such users actually try a VoIP call they end up with 300ms delay, which is deeply in the awkward territory IIRC.
>
> Regards
> Sebastian
>
>
>>
>> Gene
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Eugene Chang
>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 9:09 PM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Gene,
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 27, 2022, at 05:50, Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Of course…. But the ISP’s maxim is "don’t believe the customer’s speedtest numbers if it is not with their host".
>>>
>>> [SM] In an act of reasonable regulation did the EU give national regulatory agencies the right to define and set-up national "speed-tests" (located outside of the access ISPs networks) which ISPs effectively need to accept. In Germany the local NRA (Bundes-Netz-Agentur, BNetzA) created a speedtest application against servers operated on their behalf and will, if a customers demonstrates the ISP falling short of the contracted rates (according to a somewhat complicated definition and measurement rules). convince ISPs to follow the law and either release customers from their contracts immediately or lower the price in relation to the under-fulfillment. (Unfortunately all related official web pages are in German only).
>>> This put a hold on the practice of gaming speedtests, like DOCSIS ISPs measuring an in-segment speedtest server which conveniently hides if a segment's uplink is congested... Not all ISPs gamed their speedtests, and even the in-segment speedtest can be justified for some measurements (e.g. when trying to figure out whether congestion is in-segment or out-of-segment), but the temptation must have been large to not set-up the most objective spedtest. (We have a saying along the lines of "making a goat your gardener" which generally is considered a sub-optimal approach).
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 11:44 AM, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a good maxim: Don't believe a speed test that is hosted by your own ISP.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 2:36 PM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>> Thank you for the dialog,.
>>>>> This discussion with regards to Starlink is interesting as it confirms my guesses about the gap between Starlinks overly simplified, over optimistic marketing and the reality as they acquire subscribers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am actually interested in a more perverse issue. I am seeing latency and bufferbloat as a consequence from significant under provisioning. It doesn’t matter that the ISP is selling a fiber drop, if (parts) of their network is under provisioned. Two end points can be less than 5 mile apart and realize 120+ ms latency. Two Labor Days ago (a holiday) the max latency was 230+ ms. The pattern I see suggest digital redlining. The older communities appear to have much more severe under provisioning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another observation. Running speedtest appears to go from the edge of the network by layer 2 to the speedtest host operated by the ISP. Yup, bypasses the (suspected overloaded) routers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, just observing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 11:20 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 23:10, Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments inline below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>>>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0 at gmx.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Eugene,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 22:54, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, we are getting into the details. I agree.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every node in the path has to implement this to be effective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Amazingly the biggest bang for the buck is gotten by fixing those nodes that actually contain a network path's bottleneck. Often these are pretty stable. So yes for fully guaranteed service quality all nodes would need to participate, but for improving things noticeably it is sufficient to improve the usual bottlenecks, e.g. for many internet access links the home gateway is a decent point to implement better buffer management. (In short the problem are over-sized and under-managed buffers, and one of the best solution is better/smarter buffer management).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not completely true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SM] You are likely right, trying to summarize things leads to partially incorrect generalizations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Say the bottleneck is at node N. During the period of congestion, the upstream node N-1 will have to buffer. When node N recovers, the bufferbloat at N-1 will be blocking until the bufferbloat drains. Etc. etc. Making node N better will reduce the extent of the backup at N-1, but N-1 should implement the better code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SM] It is the node that builds up the queue that profits most from better queue management.... (again I generalize, the node with the queue itself probably does not care all that much, but the endpoints will profit if the queue experiencing node deals with that queue more gracefully).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact, every node in the path has to have the same prioritization or the scheme becomes ineffective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes and no, one of the clearest winners has been flow queueing, IMHO not because it is the most optimal capacity sharing scheme, but because it is the least pessimal scheme, allowing all (or none) flows forward progress. You can interpret that as a scheme in which flows below their capacity share are prioritized, but I am not sure that is the best way to look at these things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The hardest part is getting competing ISPs to implement and coordinate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SM] Yes, but it turned out even with non-cooperating ISPs there is a lot end-users can do unilaterally on their side to improve both ingress and egress congestion. Admittedly especially ingress congestion would be even better handled with cooperation of the ISP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bufferbloat and handoff between ISPs will be hard. The only way to fix this is to get the unwashed public to care. Then they can say “we don’t care about the technical issues, just fix it.” Until then …..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [SM] Well we do this one home network at a time (not because that is efficient or ideal, but simply because it is possible). Maybe, if you have not done so already try OpenWrt with sqm-scripts (and maybe cake-autorate in addition) on your home internet access link for say a week and let us know ih/how your experience changed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>>>>>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>>>>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 10:48 AM, David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> software updates can do far more than just improve recovery.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In practice, large data transfers are less sensitive to latency than smaller data transfers (i.e. downloading a CD image vs a video conference), software can ensure better fairness in preventing a bulk transfer from hurting the more latency sensitive transfers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (the example below is not completely accurate, but I think it gets the point across)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When buffers become excessivly large, you have the situation where a video call is going to generate a small amount of data at a regular interval, but a bulk data transfer is able to dump a huge amount of data into the buffer instantly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you just do FIFO, then you get a small chunk of video call, then several seconds worth of CD transfer, followed by the next small chunk of the video call.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the software can prevent the one app from hogging so much of the connection and let the chunk of video call in sooner, avoiding the impact to the real time traffic. Historically this has required the admin classify all traffic and configure equipment to implement different treatment based on the classification (and this requires trust in the classification process), the bufferbloat team has developed options (fq_codel and cake) that can ensure fairness between applications/servers with little or no configuration, and no trust in other systems to properly classify their traffic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The one thing that Cake needs to work really well is to be able to know what the data rate available is. With Starlink, this changes frequently and cake integrated into the starlink dish/router software would be far better than anything that can be done externally as the rate changes can be fed directly into the settings (currently they are only indirectly detected)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You already know this. Bufferbloat is a symptom and not the cause. Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) periods of low or no bandwidth or (2) periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka network congestion).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If I understand this correctly, just a software update cannot make bufferbloat go away. It might improve the speed of recovery (e.g. throw away all time sensitive UDP messages).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>>>>>>>> eugene.chang at ieee.org
>>>>>>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions about sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's latency and jitter. As load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through, increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought bufferbloat, a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a change in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of more satellites.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their software, said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <eugene.chang at alum.mit.edu<mailto:eugene.chang at alum.mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They don’t see it or feel it’s impact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it impacts something they care about.
>>>>>>>>>>>> - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous.
>>>>>>>>>>>> - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
>>>>>>>>>>>> - business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to “see” the impact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this awakening, you can get all the press you want for free.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is latency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugene.chang at alum.mit.edu <mailto:eugene.chang at alum.mit.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if they publish a link to our statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see happening at scale without some technical work on the network. Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's application would be an attention-getter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
>>>>>>>>>>>>> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go a long way towards shifting the tide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood at comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood at comcast.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue to focus on what they know...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correspondents dinner, but perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/<https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/<https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Perens K6BP
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Perens K6BP
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bruce Perens K6BP
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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