[Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application

[David Fernández]

Even GEO satellites can be useful for certain telemedicine applications:
https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/Telemedicine_via_satellite_improves_care_at_astronaut_landings

Note that if all computer programs grow until they add functions to
become email clients, all communication systems end up adding
telehealth as an application.

> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:10:46 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Lang <david at lang.hm>
> To: "David Bray, PhD" <david.a.bray at gmail.com>
> Cc: " Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the
> 	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?="
> 	<nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net>,  David Lang <david at lang.hm>,
> 	rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>,  starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's
> 	RDOF Application
> Message-ID: <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1 at ynat.uz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion was on
> the
> topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming
> that we
> needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of
> telehealth
> as well.
>
> I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are compared
> to
> in-person meetings.
>
> David Lang
>
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote:
>
>> There’s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO as long as
>> it isn’t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious listserv founder
>> Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via
>> ground-based connections too.
>>
>> That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental
>> health
>> services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardless
>> of
>> LEO or not. The concern is two fold:
>>
>> * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a
>> patient developing a relationship with a health provider
>>
>> * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. One
>> might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidence
>> showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there’s actually a
>> continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by the
>> body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend or
>> foe. Since we cannot see a person’s hands and body movements we don’t know
>> if they’re coming to attack us or not.
>>
>> So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we
>> were literally messing with our brains’ own natural biological processes?
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain <
>> nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
>>>
>>> I've used it personally.
>>>
>>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women
>>> have any
>>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They
>>> are
>>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the
>>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. So
>>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't work
>>> over
>>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance
>>> learning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/
>>>>
>>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain
>>> in
>>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth
>>> access
>>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a
>>> growing
>>>> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health needs.
>>>>
>>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume
>>> healthcare
>>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to
>>>> women.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet
>>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do
>>>>> with shipping bits around?
>>>>>
>>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to get
>>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every
>>>>> house.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were
>>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies
>>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or
>>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for
>>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger
>>>>> population areas?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past
>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity
>>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and
>>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm
>>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We
>>> probably
>>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work
>>> for
>>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill – no
>>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford
>>> proper
>>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. During
>>> the
>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling of
>>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 had
>>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, were
>>>>>> third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to see how they
>>>>>> stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet, and doing
>>> all
>>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling the
>>> water,
>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the
>>> shearing,
>>>>>> the plowing and the picking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because there was no electricity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
>>>>>>>>> <nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satcom
>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to
>>> overcome
>>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digital
>>>>>>>>> divide -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the goal
>>> to
>>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially
>>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at
>>> specifically
>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not
>>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make a
>>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company because
>>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to service
>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is
>>> literally
>>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it
>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a
>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme
>>> locations,
>>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.
>>> Whitney).
>>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure
>>> that
>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However given
>>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim
>>> period.
>>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from a
>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually
>>> discussion
>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlink
>>> was
>>>>>>>> mostly redacted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between
>>>>>>> houses is 'too far'?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities with
>>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there are
>>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable
>>>>>>> enough.
>>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the
>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority of
>>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), but
>>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or
>>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an
>>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less
>>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Lang