[Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast

Mon Jan 2 14:00:03 EST 2023

> On Jan 2, 2023, at 19:44, Ben Greear via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On 1/2/23 9:35 AM, David Fernández via Starlink wrote:
>> Just wondering how comes that buffering is not standardized. Wondering
>> why buffer sizes are left to implementation decisions of possibly
>> clueless vendors, which devices can worsen the performance of the
>> network.
> 
> There is no perfect answer, and every configuration has some trade-off.
> 
> It is a long grind of tricky code and careful and widely varied testing
> to make progress in this area.

Also the (maximum) buffer size becomes far less relevant if the buffer is properly managed...

Over-sized and under-managed, that is the problematic combination.

That said, part of the challenge is that throughput is easy to measure and is actively marketed and consumers have learned to look for these numbers.
So manufacturers increasing throughput by enlarging buffers is at least understandable in our market economy.
This is why it is important to educate end-users and supply easy tools to allow them to effortlessly measure the effect of over-buffering on interactivity.

Regards
	Sebastian

> 
> Thanks,
> Ben
> 
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 19:00:56 -0500 (EST)
>>> From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed at deepplum.com>
>>> To: starlink-request at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> Cc: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast
>>> Message-ID: <1671840056.20758968 at mobile.rackspace.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8
>>> 
>>> Sorry for front posting. The L2 and L3
>>> are following the "end to end argument". The function of the L2 network is
>>> to not queue more than absolutely necessary.
>>> The function at L3 is to respond to congestion signals by reducing input to
>>> a fair share of available capacity, quickly, cooperating with other L3
>>> protocols.
>>> 
>>> This is understood by clueful L2 and L3 folks.
>>> 
>>> Clueless vendors dominate the L2 vendor space. Sadly. They refuse to stop
>>> over buffering.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:02:03 +0100
>>> : David Fernández
>>> To: starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Sorry, maybe I did not craft the subject correctly. I am receiving the
>>> daily digest of the list, not individual messages.
>>> 
>>> I have seen before that the L2 engineers (Wi-Fi, DVB...) and the
>>> Internet engineers (L3) are trying to solve the same issue (QoS,
>>> congestion control) without being aware of what each other are doing
>>> and not even getting coordinated. I am afraid that nowadays we have
>>> even the application layer engineers doing their own stuff (DASH,
>>> CDNs...).
>>> 
>>> Some time ago, I worked in a project about cross-layer optimization
>>> techniques for SATCOM systems, where one of the issues was to try to
>>> optimize transport layer performance with L2 info. I was just a mere
>>> observer of what academy people in the consortium where proposing.
>>> 
>>> That was quite long ago:
>>> https://artes.esa.int/projects/ipfriendly-crosslayer-optimization-adaptive-satellite-systems
>>> 
>>> Today I came across this:
>>> https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/white-paper-why-wi-fi-6-goes-hand-in-hand-with-cellular-to-enable-the-hyper-connected-enterprise-future
>>> 
>>> "the performance uplift of Wi-Fi 6 over Wi-Fi 5 is substantial and
>>> more than sufficient to support innovative use cases such as automated
>>> guided vehicles, industrial robots and many other applications."
>>> 
>>> This sound like Wi-Fi 6 will support low latency and will have a good
>>> QoS support. Maybe...
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> David
>>> 
>>> 2022-12-21 8:54 GMT+01:00, Sebastian Moeller :
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> See [SM] below.
>>>> 
>>>> On 21 December 2022 08:37:27 CET, "David Fernández via Starlink"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> What about this?
>>>>> https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-wmm-programs
>>>>> 
>>>>> Isn't this Wi-Fi MM (Multimedia) supposed to solve Wi-Fi QoS issues?
>>>> 
>>>>         [SM] In home network reality it failed to do so. I would guess
>>>> partly because the admission control component is optional and as far as I
>>>> can tell not available in the usual WiFi routers and APs. A free for all
>>>> priority system that in addition diminishes the total achievable
>>>> throughput
>>>> when the higher priority tiers are used introduces at least as much QoS
>>>> issues a it solves IMHO. This might be different for 'enterprise WiFi
>>>> gear'
>>>> but I have no experience with that...
>>>> 
>>>> Regard
>>>>       Sebastian
>>>> 
>>>> P.S.: This feels like you might responded to a different thread than the
>>>> iperf2 one we are in right now?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 11:04:13 -0800
>>>>>> From: rjmcmahon
>>>>>> To: Sebastian Moeller
>>>>>> Cc: rjmcmahon via Make-wifi-fast
>>>>>> 	, Dave Täht
>>>>>> 	, Rpm , libreqos
>>>>>> 	
>>> , Dave Taht via Starlink
>>>>>> 	, bloat
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast
>>>>>> 	2016 &	crusader
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for the well-written response Sebastian. I need to think more
>>>>>> about the load vs no load OWD differentials and maybe offer that as an
>>>>>> integrated test. Thanks for bringing it up (again.) I do think a
>>>>>> low-duty cycle bounceback test to the AP could be interesting too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't know of any projects working on iperf 2 & containers but it has
>>>>>> been suggested as useful.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Ben Greear <greearb at candelatech.com>
> Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com
> 
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