[Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

Thu Mar 16 03:46:25 EDT 2023

ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give
for Internet access, which are built for that:
https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment

France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know
better what are you buying:
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite

Then, there is the one from iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index

Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals
all around the world.

Regards,

David

> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400
> From: dan <dandenson at gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> 	<libreqos at lists.bufferbloat.net>, Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>,
> 	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>,  bloat
> 	<bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net>, David Lang <david at lang.hm>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat]  [LibreQoS] On FiWi
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
>>
>> > <rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference
>> center, they
>>
>> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the
>> place is
>>
>> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with
>> users, the
>>
>> >> entire network collapses.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments,
>> so it's
>>
>> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and
>> louder if
>>
>> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and
>> reduces the
>>
>> >> available airtime.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over
>> 100 APs
>>
>> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the
>> attendees
>>
>> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be
>> re-used
>>
>> >> more readily.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
>>
>> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
>>
>> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
>>
>>
>> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people
>> commenting on
>>
>> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't
>> get good
>>
>> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
>>
>>
>> I think this is what you mean
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
>>
>>
>>
>> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
>> you do not need the latest
>> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
>> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
>> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
>> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
>> reflashed.
>>
>> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
>> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
>> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
>> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
>>
>> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
>> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
>> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
>> supply!
>>
>>
>> > Did you get any good stats?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Run cake anywhere?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but
>> with wifi
>>
>> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest
>> possible
>>
>> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for
>> your
>>
>> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to
>> your
>>
>> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and
>> airtime
>>
>> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
>>
>> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas).
>> Wire/fiber for the
>>
>> >> uplink is much better.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> David Lang
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
>>
>> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a
>> huge
>>
>> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
>>
>> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds
>> into
>>
>> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with
>> >>> output
>>
>> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft
>> away
>>
>> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb'
>> model,
>>
>> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it
>> >>> requires
>>
>> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure
>> today and
>>
>> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
>>
>> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better
>> (and
>>
>> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off
>> prem
>>
>> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home
>> is
>>
>> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that
>> are
>>
>> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out
>> of
>>
>> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I
>> have
>>
>> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
>>
>> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
>>
>> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
>>
>> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This
>> model,
>>
>> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or
>> WiFi7
>>
>> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable
>> by
>>
>> >>> consumers setup.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
>>
>> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's
>> >>> in
>>
>> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of
>> unfrastructure
>>
>> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security
>> and
>>
>> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated
>> >>> by
>>
>> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and
>> >>>> very
>>
>> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded
>> to
>>
>> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
>>
>> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY
>> >>>> rates
>>
>> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
>>
>> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
>> isn't
>>
>> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a
>> >>>> dog
>>
>> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from
>> >>>> block
>>
>> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
>>
>> >>>> systems, etc.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
>> and
>>
>> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
>>
>> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
>>
>> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion?
>> Add
>>
>> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
>>
>> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Bob
>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
>>
>> >>>>> <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation
>> >>>>>> has
>>
>> >>>>>> to halt.
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
>>
>> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
>>
>> >>>>> room.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Bloat mailing list
>>
>> >> Bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Rpm mailing list
>>
>> >> Rpm at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>
> Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially
> poorly made.  Ie, engineered for our disposable market.  Lots of netgear
> products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that,
> and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed them.
>
>
> I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give
> them longer life.  To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these items
> from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.
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