[Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat
rjmcmahon
rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com
Tue Mar 28 18:42:47 EDT 2023
If it doesn't align with privacy & security, what we know of physics,
what can be achieved by world class engineering, what will be funded by
market models or behaviors based upon payments & receipts, increase job
creation for blue collar workers, reduce power consumption, etc. then I
agree FiWi should, and likely will, fail.
Russia came very late to the industrial revolution because its leaders
were against technological progress, e.g. trains. That was a critical
juncture for them.
https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/jhoran/2014/08/31/transportation-and-industrialization/
It seems likely to me we are at our own critical juncture. I hope we get
it more or less right so that inclusive human societies, societies that
learn to care for others, built from our technologies, technologies
derived from the works & ideas of those who came before us, can benefit
long after we each depart as has been done with potable water supplies
for many (but not all.)
Bob
PS. I tend to ignore things that have no chance. I find it better to
spend my time & energy on things that do have some possibility of
impact. I find our lives are too short to do otherwise.
> IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to
> fruition. No one wants it. I don’t want it, I see nothing but
> flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy
> in homes and business, and general consumer mistrust of such a model
> and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access. I
> will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way
> you can talk about. I cannot find a single benefit it offers.
>
> On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over
>> ten+
>> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required.
>> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
>> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as
>> they
>> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
>>
>> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
>>
>> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the
>> sunk
>> mistakes get magnified every passing year.
>>
>> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the
>> opportunity
>> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and
>> also
>> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency *
>> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside
>>> LA,
>>
>>> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> David Lang
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
>>
>>>> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow
>>
>>>> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
>>
>>>> https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm
>>> bill
>>
>>>> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New
>>> Deal
>>
>>>> after the Great Depression.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our
>>> urban
>>
>>>> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies.
>>> These
>>
>>>> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they
>>> get
>>
>>>> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city
>>> infrastructures.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Bob
>>
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and
>>> the like
>>
>>>>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in
>>> the US.
>>
>>>>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Frank
>>
>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon
>>> (rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com)
>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get
>>> this
>>
>>>>>> (structural separation) right.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed
>>> spectrum to
>>
>>>>>> the
>>
>>>>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for
>>> these
>>
>>>>>> OTA
>>
>>>>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality
>>> and
>>
>>>>>> factual
>>
>>>>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got
>>> rid of
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli
>>> Noam.
>>
>>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we
>>> get
>>
>>>>>> January
>>
>>>>>> 6th and an insurrection.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three
>>> times a
>>
>>>>>> day.
>>
>>>>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>>
>>>>>> obligation
>>
>>>>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>>
>>>>>> franchise
>>
>>>>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to
>>> provide
>>
>>>>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>>
>>>>>> miserably.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be
>>> "competition"
>>
>>>>>> in
>>
>>>>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>>
>>>>>> monopoly
>>
>>>>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights
>>> (mostly
>>
>>>>>> for
>>
>>>>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC
>>> for the
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>>
>>>>>> empirically
>>
>>>>>> in the U.S.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their
>>> budgets.
>>
>>>>>> And
>>
>>>>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly
>>> the FCC
>>
>>>>>> that
>>
>>>>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet
>>> Jackson's
>>
>>>>>> breast
>>
>>>>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function
>>> well.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for
>>> their
>>
>>>>>> "news."
>>
>>>>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>>
>>>>>> emotional
>>
>>>>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily
>>> provide
>>
>>>>>> this
>>
>>>>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment
>>> providers
>>
>>>>>> claim
>>
>>>>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI
>>> loads!!"
>>
>>>>>> and
>>
>>>>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>>
>>>>>> trigger
>>
>>>>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which
>>> is a
>>
>>>>>> sad
>>
>>>>>> theme for undereducated populations.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a
>>> public
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes
>>> addiction
>>
>>>>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>>
>>>>>> ourselves.
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>
>>>>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class
>>> "textbook":
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>
>>>>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>>
>>>>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>>
>>>>>> government
>>
>>>>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>>
>>>>>> worl...
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] [1]
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> -------------------------
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces at lists.bufferbloat.net> on
>>> behalf of
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink
>>> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>>
>>>>>> To: David Lang <david at lang.hm>
>>
>>>>>> Cc: dan <dandenson at gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>>
>>>>>> <frantisek.borsik at gmail.com>; libreqos
>>
>>>>>> <libreqos at lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>>
>>>>>> <starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>>
>>>>>> <rjmcmahon at rjmcmahon.com>;
>>
>>>>>> bloat <bloat at lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical
>>> infrastructure
>>
>>>>>> w/Comcast chat
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Hi David,
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david at lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>
>>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>>
>>>>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications
>>> infrastructure is
>>
>>>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a
>>> path in
>>
>>>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>>
>>>>> perspective.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>>
>>>>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with
>>> other
>>
>>>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see
>>> a PtP
>>
>>>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a
>>> viable
>>
>>>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all
>>> the
>>
>>>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC
>>> this
>>
>>>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS
>>> wiring has
>>
>>>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current
>>> fiber
>>
>>>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>>
>>>>> component
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal
>>> management.
>>
>>>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>>
>>>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about
>>> life
>>
>>>>> times of decades).
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is
>>> doing
>>
>>>>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and
>>> in
>>
>>>>> many
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from
>>> building
>>
>>>>> such
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> systems.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>>
>>>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just
>>> think
>>
>>>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we
>>> want
>>
>>>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place
>>> to
>>
>>>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple
>>> ISPs
>>
>>>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There
>>> are
>>
>>>>> two
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>>
>>>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors
>>> for
>>
>>>>> "reasonable" prices
>>
>>>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain
>>> the
>>
>>>>> access network
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we
>>> already
>>
>>>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a
>>
>>>>> spanner
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access,
>>> but
>>
>>>>> will
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as
>>> would be
>>
>>>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My
>>> subjective
>>
>>>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would
>>> offer a
>>
>>>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do
>>> best,
>>
>>>>> offer
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the
>>> access
>>
>>>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow
>>> a
>>
>>>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to
>>> convert
>>
>>>>> to FTTH first....
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I
>>> understand
>>
>>>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses
>>> hooked up
>>
>>>>> to
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house
>>> network
>>
>>>>> design in a future-proof way...
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Regards
>>
>>>>> Sebastian
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing,
>>> just
>>
>>>>> that I can see why it is happening.
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> David Lang
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>
>>>>> Starlink at lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Links:
>>
>>>>> ------
>>
>>>>> [1]
>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Links:
>>
>>>>> ------
>>
>>>>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>>
>>>>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>>
>>>>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>>
>>>>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
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