[Starlink] [NNagain] the real state of "smart agriculture"?

Thu Nov 16 13:11:13 EST 2023

This is really cool playground you have there "down under", Rohan. Thanks
for sharing this challenge with us.

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik at gmail.com

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 12:32 AM Rohan M via Nnagain <
nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am the Head of IT and Engineering for Flavorite, one of the largest
> hydroponic glasshouse producers in the southern hemisphere with ~100ha
> under glass. We predominantly focus on tomatoes, capsicums, cucumbers and
> blueberries (the latter are not glasshouse grown). Glasshouse production is
> typically 60% more water efficient than conventional cropping, or said
> another way, it uses 1/3 of the water of conventional cropping.
>
> We have several different environments that span large distances and use a
> myriad of different technologies to support them.
>
> In the glasshouses our biggest challenge is getting a signal through a
> glass, a metal frame, and thick foliage which is >90% water. Foliage is
> typically very dense and layered which creates a perfect sink for the
> majority of signals.  (eg
> https://investgippsland.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Flavorite-2-e1574123141523-756x350.jpg
> )
>
> Glasshouse environments:
> In the glasshouse we have long spans (varies but up to 400m/1312ft) of
> centre paths that are up to 4m across and concreted (eg
> https://www.atophort.com/files/News/202110/tomatoes-in-greenhouse.jpg )
>
> The typical temperatures in the glasshouses ranges from about 20C (68F) to
> 45C (113F) - more in direct sun during summer, with high humidity at times,
> this is a barrier for a lot of devices, as it will push a processor idling
> at 50C across the 95C threshold and cause it to crash.
>
> Primary communication there is via wifi, we often use 3 unifi points (Flex
> HD/U6 mesh) to cover the centre path, but we are trialling the unifi Mesh
> Pro AC points as they have shown to cover larger areas. Wifi (or any
> signal) access down rows more than about 5m off the centre path generally
> is poor, but with points up high enough we have enough to keep the fresnel
> zones clear around the APs. One problem here is that we have to mount the
> APs on steel uprights, which may or may not have hydronic heating tubes
> nearby.
>
> Wireless communication for moisture sensing is done by proprietary
> systems, but they typically use LoraWan, with a gateway to the main
> network. These have poor propagation past 50m in these environments due to
> the wavelengths and the foliage, so sometimes do not register correctly.
>
> Even though there is a 5g mobile repeater nearby (~1km away), getting
> reception on any mobile network in a glasshouse is generally nigh
> impossible.
>
> Warehouse/Packing environments:
> Warehouse/Packing environments have a large amount of industrial equipment
> for grading, packing, weighing and sorting fruit for delivery and
> logistics. These environments typically have a lot of metal on the general
> work floor which reflects or grounds signals. The walls and ceiling are
> made of aluminum alloy which sandwiches insulation foam (as the whole area
> is temperature controlled), there is heavy cement reinforced with rebar
> fire walls between major sections, and a cement/concrete floor. The whole
> structure acts as a Faraday's cage, so there are no signals going outside,
> and inside, as mentioned, there is a lot of industrial equipment.
>
> Size of these environments approximates the same as glasshouses - 600m x
> 300m typically.
>
> In this environment we have approximately 60-80 wifi devices, a lot of
> people who use "wi-fi calling" on mobile devices. 5g signal propagation in
> such areas is non-existent, especially in rural areas. Boosters have been
> tried, and failed, many times, with calls dropping out regularly.
>
> Getting any signal propagation across the environment is a challenge.
> Typically how we handle this is by ceiling mounted APs, but we find that
> without AP based SQM these units experience bufferbloat, which causes calls
> to drop out, or pause. The typical farmer mentality in these instances is
> to put in a bigger AP, but this has not solved the problem (even with the
> enormous stadium type units). The next stage here is to try more APs in
> strategic locations.
>
> It should be noted that in some such environments there are multiple very
> large, 16kva (or above) pumps which have large magnetic fields despite
> isolation etc. The way we've managed that is by having more density of
> points in those areas, which improves things but doesn't solve them.
>
> Blueberry fields:
> Blueberry fields are similar to glasshouses, plants grow up to 1.7m
> (5ft6in) and have dense foliage, similar layout to inside of a glasshouse,
> however larger areas (500m/1640ft square is typical) with varying degrees
> of elevation depending on the site. Getting a signal here is also a
> challenge. So far we have deployed Unifi Mesh Pro AC units at the top of
> treated pine poles around 2M up, three of these units allow long distance
> wifi down the main paths (circa 350-400m range each), and approximately
> 10m/32ft into the blueberry rows.
>
> Typical applications here are tablets and phones for voip. Density of
> client devices is much lower than the other environments, with 20 clients
> typically per field at any time.
>
>
> In summary - 4g/5g in these environments is of limited use due to lack of
> ability to foster signal propagation and the fact that these locations are
> rural, which means infrastructure typically is poor in the area.
>
> Cheers
> Rohan M
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 11:44 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can
>> chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain
>> points[2])
>>
>> I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major
>> component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where
>> starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a
>> good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and
>> too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other
>> centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support
>> in remote environments dicy and expensive.
>>
>> I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies,
>> we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every
>> suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud,
>> rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and
>> drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and
>> other forms of satellite analysis. [1]
>>
>> But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily
>> constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or
>> less:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=asc_df_B086MJGFVV/
>>
>> And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at
>> low complexity and power also.
>>
>> then there are things like amazon sidewalk:
>> https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=21328123011
>>
>> And airtags.
>>
>> [1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has
>> recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious
>> minerals over the past 100 years. Please see:
>>
>> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831
>>
>> How smart is that?
>>
>> [2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water
>> hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought
>> led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year.
>>
>> You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at
>> "the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay.
>> That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers
>> at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and
>> squid.
>>
>> How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I
>> vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally....
>>
>> I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing,
>> sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically,
>> another.
>>
>> --
>> :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Nnagain at lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain
>
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