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<p>Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a
result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether
that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or
heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've
already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this
week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely
declined and informed our university's chief information security
officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot
less polite than me.</p>
<p>A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in
Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas
exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a
big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The
pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the
USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their
Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts
signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen,
and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas
company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and
knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly
found itself with another transit country along its pipeline.
Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate.
Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap
or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they
wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of
multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of
saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the
impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by
them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. <br>
</p>
<p>None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but
maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is
suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. <br>
</p>
<p>I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to
preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these
options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come
out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light
into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of
hostilities and any risks to those using it.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1646351242.121623495@apps.rackspace.com">
<font size="2" face="arial">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">I'm really appreciating all
the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">However, it's a lot
distressing that the focus is on "military operations"
context.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">It seems like most of the
commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a
situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more
attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided).</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Are we helping Elon Musk
become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants?</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">So how is Starlink helping
get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who
just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate
ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail?</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Surely there are
applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the
US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill,
Kill, Kill for Peace" </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">This also strikes me about
the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from
the Internet at the borders and denying the people living
there from accessing PayPal, etc.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">On Thursday, March 3, 2022
5:01pm, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net</a> said:<br>
<br>
</p>
<div id="SafeStyles1646350785">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;font-family: arial; font-size:
10pt; overflow-wrap: break-word;">> Send Starlink mailing
list submissions to<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <br>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit<br>
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <br>
> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <br>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific<br>
> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..."<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Today's Topics:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result
(<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tom@evslin.com">tom@evslin.com</a>)<br>
> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)<br>
> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)<br>
> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500<br>
> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tom@evslin.com"><tom@evslin.com></a><br>
> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io"><nathan@nathan.io></a>, "'David
Lang'"<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test
result<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com"><23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for
teleconferencing altho we<br>
> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually
the worst on the call but<br>
> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being
paid to present AND I had a<br>
> choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From: Starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> On Behalf Of
Nathan<br>
> Owens<br>
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM<br>
> To: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test
result<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are
great.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent
measurements? I also finally<br>
> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:david@lang.hm">david@lang.hm</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><mailto:david@lang.hm></a> > wrote:<br>
> <br>
> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls
for a while with no<br>
> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the
other participants)<br>
> <br>
> David Lang<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec
intervals, induced<br>
> > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload
throughput relative to<br>
> > down.<br>
> ><br>
> > H/T David Lang for this data.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason<br>
> > <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com">Jason_Livingood@comcast.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com"><mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com></a><br>
> > wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> When folks experience sub-par video
conferencing over Starlink, it'd be<br>
> great to see working latency stats at that time - such
as via the easy test at<br>
> <a href="https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat</a>.<br>
> >><br>
> >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave
Taht"<br>
> <<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"><mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net></a>
on behalf of<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com></a>
> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> <br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$</a><br>
> <<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$</a>><br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >> I tried to build a better future, a few times:<br>
> >> <br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$</a><br>
> <<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$</a>><br>
> >><br>
> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
> >>
_______________________________________________<br>
> >> Starlink mailing list<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> >> <br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$</a><br>
> <<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$</a>><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >_______________________________________________<br>
> Starlink mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br>
> <br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST)<br>
> From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> To: Nathan Owens <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io"><nathan@nathan.io></a><br>
> Cc: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a>, Dave Taht
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a>,<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test
result<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz"><87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br>
> <br>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup<br>
> <br>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown<br>
> <br>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup<br>
> <br>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown<br>
> <br>
> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net -t<br>
> dlangs-dishy rrul_be<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime
are great.<br>
> ><br>
> > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent
measurements? I also<br>
> > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot,
attached.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> That said, I've been using starlink for work
zoom calls for a while with<br>
> >> no<br>
> >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my
side vs the other<br>
> participants)<br>
> >><br>
> >> David Lang<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15
sec intervals, induced<br>
> >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload
throughput relative to<br>
> >>> down.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> H/T David Lang for this data.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood,
Jason<br>
> >>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com"><Jason_Livingood@comcast.com></a> wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> When folks experience sub-par video
conferencing over Starlink,<br>
> it'd be<br>
> >> great to see working latency stats at that
time - such as via the easy<br>
> test<br>
> >> at <a href="https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat</a>.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf
of Dave Taht" <<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a> on
behalf of<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> --<br>
> >>>> I tried to build a better future, a
few times:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
> >>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> Starlink mailing list<br>
> >>>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>>
_______________________________________________<br>
> >> Starlink mailing list<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> >> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 3<br>
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST)<br>
> From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> To: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> Cc: Nathan Owens <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io"><nathan@nathan.io></a>, Dave Taht
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a>,<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test
result<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz"><sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br>
> <br>
> and the irtt<br>
> <br>
> irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup<br>
> ><br>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown<br>
> ><br>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup<br>
> ><br>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net<br>
> > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8
tcp_ndown<br>
> ><br>
> > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H
fremont.starlink.taht.net -t<br>
> > dlangs-dishy rrul_be<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams /
FaceTime are great.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those
flent measurements? I also<br>
> >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot,
attached.<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> That said, I've been using starlink for
work zoom calls for a while<br>
> with<br>
> >>> no<br>
> >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on
my side vs the other<br>
> >>> participants)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> David Lang<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at
15 sec intervals, induced<br>
> >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible
upload throughput relative to<br>
> >>>> down.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> H/T David Lang for this data.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM
Livingood, Jason<br>
> >>>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com"><Jason_Livingood@comcast.com></a>
wrote:<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> When folks experience sub-par
video conferencing over<br>
> Starlink, it'd be<br>
> >>> great to see working latency stats at that
time - such as via the<br>
> easy<br>
> >>> test<br>
> >>> at <a href="https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat</a>.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on
behalf of Dave Taht"<br>
> <<br>
> >>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a> on
behalf of<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >>> wrote:<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$</a><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> --<br>
> >>>>> I tried to build a better future,
a few times:<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$</a><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
> >>>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> Starlink mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>><br>
> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$</a><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Starlink mailing list<br>
> >>> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> >>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br>
> >>><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 4<br>
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000<br>
> From: Larry Press <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lpress@csudh.edu"><lpress@csudh.edu></a><br>
> To: Mike Puchol <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mike@starlink.sx"><mike@starlink.sx></a>, Dave Taht
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a>,<br>
> David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com"><BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com></a><br>
> <br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
> <br>
> > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of
the target vs. the effort<br>
> required to strike.<br>
> <br>
> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders
and journalists to<br>
> communicate with each other and the outside world seems
quite high, making the<br>
> terminals attractive targets for the Russians.<br>
> <br>
> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems
high -- Ukraine is large and<br>
> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming
without re-registration in<br>
> California/Nevada<br>
> (<a href="https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming" moz-do-not-send="true">https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming</a>).
If<br>
> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by
the users in Ukraine.<br>
> <br>
> Larry<br>
> <br>
> ________________________________<br>
> From: Starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> on behalf of
Mike<br>
> Puchol <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mike@starlink.sx"><mike@starlink.sx></a><br>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM<br>
> To: Dave Taht <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a>; David Lang
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br>
> Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine<br>
> <br>
> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing
list with so many people who<br>
> know way more than I do, about any subject I could
point my finger at, so I really<br>
> appreciate it.<br>
> <br>
> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic
analysis has evolved massively<br>
> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president
was killed by Russia with a<br>
> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals,
which included decoding the<br>
> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the
right target.<br>
> <br>
> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the
target vs. the effort<br>
> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor
cellular networks, decrypt<br>
> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically
target & strike. The same<br>
> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed
satellite, so an aircraft high<br>
> enough will be in the path between a large portion of
the ground and the<br>
> satellite.<br>
> <br>
> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be
able to detect & locate the<br>
> 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly
moves - this can be<br>
> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA
to find the source. You must<br>
> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target
valuable enough to justify a<br>
> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to
keep a good enough SNR to<br>
> demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in
real time on an<br>
> airborne platform is quite a challenge.<br>
> <br>
> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone
using any form of radio<br>
> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they
just blindly strike any<br>
> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to
avoid being targeted by just<br>
> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get
used by the military, and<br>
> Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re
far from any clear<br>
> scenario, so we need to wait & see.<br>
> <br>
> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg,
tuned to the Starlink uplink<br>
> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of
days before the invasion<br>
> began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on
the TX side of the<br>
> terminal.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> <br>
> Mike<br>
> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a>, wrote:<br>
> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being
fired at starlink dishes<br>
> <br>
> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and
rather directional, so<br>
> they aren't great targets.<br>
> <br>
> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be
fired at them, and are<br>
> being produced at a much higher rate (although there
are probably more missles<br>
> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX
inventory)<br>
> <br>
> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could
be more of a threat, but<br>
> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily
(which is why the dishes<br>
> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount
of training to be good at<br>
> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals.<br>
> <br>
> David Lang<br>
> <br>
> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500<br>
> From: Dave Taht <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"><dave.taht@gmail.com></a><br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine<br>
> <br>
> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his
insights with<br>
> us, also, on this list.<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$</a>><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:<br>
> <a href="https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$</a>><br>
> <br>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Starlink mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$</a>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Starlink mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$</a>><br>
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> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Starlink mailing list<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
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> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6<br>
> ***************************************<br>
> </p>
</div>
</font>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel
School of Computer Science
Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
The University of Auckland
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz">u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/">http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/</a>
****************************************************************
</pre>
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