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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I think that engineers telling other
engineers (military) that something isn't</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">sufficient is making a lot of
assumptions that should not be made.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And if you want to propose some
solution, then define the metrics of that solution. First,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">what is max latency/jitter/whatever
that the application can handle and still be useful?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Why exactly is your ham thing failing,
and what latency/jitter would resolve it. And/or, what mitigation</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">in your software/procedures would solve
it.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I know that Dave & crew have made
some improvements to the wifi stack, but it is far from</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">solved even today. Maybe effort is
better done on wifi where developers that are not @spacex</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">can actually make changes and test
results.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ben</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/26/22 1:04 PM, Bruce Perens via
Starlink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAK2MWOv-RFZp2TMauVogpY8NcXGs-KjVcdHfAZRqqoFUc52OHQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start
with:
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military
Applications, Say Scientists</b>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem is not availability: Starlink works where
nothing but another satellite network would. It's not
bandwidth, although others have questions about sustaining
bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's <i>latency</i>
and <i>jitter. A</i>s load increases, latency, the time it
takes for a packet to get through, increases more than it
should. The scientists who have fought <i>bufferbloat, </i>a
major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX
needs to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open
Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus
reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version,
but there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a <i>change</i>
in the speed of getting a packet through the network during
a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, but
will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting
software, and probably with the addition of more satellites.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt
it by upgrading their software, </i>said scientist Dave
Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator of the X
Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please></div>
<div>Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: <i>sometimes
Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to
remote-control my ham radio station. But the military is
experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the
battlefield and other applications that can be
demonstrated, but won't happen at <b>scale</b> without
adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies.</i></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59
PM Eugene Chang <<a href="mailto:eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">The key issue is most
people don’t understand why latency matters. They don’t see
it or feel it’s impact.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First, we have to help people see the symptoms of
latency and how it impacts something they care about.</div>
<div>- gamers care but most people may think it is
frivolous.</div>
<div>- musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.</div>
<div>- business should care because of productivity but they
don’t know how to “see” the impact.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing
the action of latency all this time and never knew it! I
was being shafted.” Once you have this awakening, you can
get all the press you want for free.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we”
hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they
hide from the discussion because the developers don’t have
a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care
because any employees affected are just considered poor
performers. (In bad economic times, the poor performers
are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to be at
a location with bad latency, they don’t know that latency
is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the
issue is latency. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as
effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be
with something that has a person impact. <br>
<div>
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<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;"><span
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px">
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Gene</div>
<div
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px">-----------------------------------</div>
<div
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px">Eugene
Chang</div>
<div
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><a
href="mailto:eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu</a></div>
<div
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px">+1-781-799-0233<span
style="text-align:-webkit-auto"> </span><span
style="text-align:-webkit-auto">(in
Honolulu)</span></div>
</span><span>
<div
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><br>
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<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via
Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">If you want to get attention, you can
get it for free. I can place articles with various
press if there is something interesting to say.
Did this all through the evangelism of Open
Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and
publish a statement. What they actually write is
less relevant if they publish a link to our
statement.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Right now I am concerned that the Starlink
latency and jitter is going to be a problem even
for remote controlling my ham station. The US
Military is interested in doing much more, which
they have demonstrated, but I don't see
happening <i>at scale </i>without some
technical work on the network. Being able to say
this isn't ready for the government's
application would be an attention-getter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Bruce</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 26,
2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">These days,
if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k
half page<br>
ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the
latency, Stupid!",<br>
signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the
fcc wifi fight, would<br>
go a long way towards shifting the tide.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <<a
href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood,
Jason<br>
> <<a
href="mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Jason_Livingood@comcast.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > The awareness & understanding of
latency & impact on QoE is nearly unknown
among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some
kind of background briefings for reporters -
maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that
is short & high level & visual?
Otherwise reporters will just continue to focus
on what they know...<br>
><br>
> That's a great idea. I have visions of
crashing the washington<br>
> correspondents dinner, but perhaps<br>
> there is some set of gatherings journalists
regularly attend?<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on
behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" <<a
href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
on behalf of <a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I still find it remarkable that
reporters are still missing the<br>
> > meaning of the huge latencies for
starlink, under load.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> FQ World Domination pending: <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e="
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/</a><br>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
FQ World Domination pending: <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e="
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/</a><br>
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Bruce Perens K6BP</div>
</div>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Bruce Perens K6BP</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="160">--
Ben Greear <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:greearb@candelatech.com"><greearb@candelatech.com></a>
Candela Technologies Inc <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.candelatech.com">http://www.candelatech.com</a>
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