<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
> <span style="color:rgb(36, 36, 36);font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important" class="ContentPasted0">(there
is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good</span><br style="color:rgb(36, 36, 36);font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255)" class="ContentPasted0">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<span style="color:rgb(36, 36, 36);font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important" class="ContentPasted0">>
enough copy of it to see the units). </span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<span style="color:rgb(36, 36, 36);font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important" class="ContentPasted0"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<span style="color:rgb(36, 36, 36);font-family:"Segoe UI", "Segoe UI Web (West European)", "Segoe UI", -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);display:inline !important" class="ContentPasted0">Is
this what you are referring to?</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof ContentPasted1">
<a href="https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088" id="LPlnkOWALinkPreview">https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088</a><br>
</div>
<div class="_Entity _EType_OWALinkPreview _EId_OWALinkPreview _EReadonly_1">
<div id="LPBorder_GTaHR0cHM6Ly90d2l0dGVyLmNvbS9lbG9ubXVzay9zdGF0dXMvMTU4MDU3MjM4MDUzNTAwMTA4OA.." class="LPBorder777747" style="width: 100%; margin-top: 16px; margin-bottom: 16px; position: relative; max-width: 800px; min-width: 424px;">
<table id="LPContainer777747" role="presentation" style="padding: 12px 36px 12px 12px; width: 100%; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-radius: 2px;">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top" style="border-spacing: 0px;">
<td style="width: 100%;">
<div id="LPTitle777747" style="font-size: 21px; font-weight: 300; margin-right: 8px; font-family: wf_segoe-ui_light, "Segoe UI Light", "Segoe WP Light", "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; margin-bottom: 12px;">
<a target="_blank" id="LPUrlAnchor777747" href="https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088" style="text-decoration: none; color: var(--themePrimary);">Elon Musk on Twitter: "Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine"</a></div>
<div id="LPDescription777747" style="font-size: 14px; max-height: 100px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif; margin-bottom: 12px; margin-right: 8px; overflow: hidden;">
Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine . 13 Oct 2022 14:53:15</div>
<div id="LPMetadata777747" style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: 400; color: rgb(166, 166, 166); font-family: wf_segoe-ui_normal, "Segoe UI", "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif;">
twitter.com</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> David Lang <david@lang.hm><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 14, 2022 1:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Lang <david@lang.hm><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu>; Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>; Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div class="PlainText">Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting service or stopping funding it,
<br>
they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service for <br>
free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for free <br>
(apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat)<br>
<br>
David Lang<br>
<br>
On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote:<br>
<br>
> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT)<br>
> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm><br>
> To: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu><br>
> Cc: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>, David Lang <david@lang.hm>,<br>
> Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><br>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army?<br>
> <br>
> some interesting tidbits in that article<br>
><br>
> 1. 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor<br>
> 2. they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rates<br>
> 2a. it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes, although <br>
> a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may be better <br>
> than the gen 2 consumer dishes.<br>
><br>
> yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full.<br>
><br>
> I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to be the <br>
> entire communications infrastructure for a country. I think it would be a <br>
> very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of users and <br>
> data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good <br>
> enough copy of it to see the units). It could confirm/refute the "starlink <br>
> can't scale" argument<br>
><br>
> David Lang<br>
><br>
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote:<br>
><br>
>> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon:<br>
>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtGlgTibA-Lr3EWZACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtGlgTibA-Lr3EWZACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$</a>
<br>
>> <br>
>> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refined things <br>
>> like mobile connectivity.<br>
>> <br>
>> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid?<br>
>> <br>
>> Larry<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David <br>
>> Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><br>
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM<br>
>> To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu><br>
>> Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army?<br>
>> <br>
>> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m total <br>
>> figure<br>
>> is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure that they <br>
>> sent<br>
>> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), that <br>
>> works<br>
>> out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high.<br>
>> <br>
>> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine could <br>
>> be<br>
>> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in his tweet <br>
>> he<br>
>> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine <br>
>> related"<br>
>> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work should <br>
>> be<br>
>> either)<br>
>> <br>
>> David Lang<br>
>> <br>
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>>> This thread <br>
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$
<br>
>>> )<br>
>>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at<br>
>>> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant<br>
>>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but<br>
>>> not on the basic model.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink<br>
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even setting the<br>
>>>>> expectation that it’s a “freemium” model, it’s very hard to get out of <br>
>>>>> it. If<br>
>>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis work out, <br>
>>>>> eyebrows<br>
>>>>> raise way above the hairline.<br>
>>>> <br>
>>>> Uh. Hmm.<br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>> Starlink mailing list<br>
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<br>
>>>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$</a><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> Starlink mailing list<br>
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<br>
>>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$" data-auth="NotApplicable">
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$</a><br>
></div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>