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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Starlink
[mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName w:st="on">Dave Collier-Brown</st1:PersonName>
via Starlink<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 4, 2023
6:48 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the
grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think
using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty normal
English, if technically erroneous when speaking nerd or physicist.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><b><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] I’ve
not heard of that usage before. The units aren’t commensurate either. </span></font></i></b><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Using it
for volume? Arguably more like fraudulent...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><b><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>[RR] I don’t
think that was Bob’s intent. I think “load volume” was meant
to be a metaphor for “number of bits/bytes” being transported (“by
the semi”). <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p><b><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>That said,
aren’t users these days educated on “gigs” which they
intuitively understand to be Gigabits per second (or Gbps)? Oddly enough, that
is an expression of “data/information/communication rate” in the
appropriate units with the nominal technically correct meaning. <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>
<p><b><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>RR</span></font></i></b><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>--dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite
cite="mid:CAK2MWOsGZ1bzHJj+FA=jDLucsZ7OvqBYRAq5eM_arBrBT+ZNYQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible to normal users,
especially when we want them to press their providers to deal with bufferbloat.
Differences like speed and rate would go right over their heads.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Ulrich Speidel</st1:PersonName>
via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
moz-do-not-send=true>starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;background:white'>The
use of the term "speed" in communications used to be restricted to
the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be dealing
with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I
think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a lot.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-- <br>
**************************************************************** <br>
Dr. <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Ulrich Speidel</st1:PersonName> <br>
<br>
Department of Computer Science <br>
<br>
Room 303S.594<br>
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 <br>
<br>
The University of Auckland <br>
<a href="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz" target="_blank"
title="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz" moz-do-not-send=true>u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/%7Eulrich/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/</a><br>
**************************************************************** <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> on behalf
of rjmcmahon via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 5, 2023
9:02 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:jf@jonathanfoulkes.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>jf@jonathanfoulkes.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:jf@jonathanfoulkes.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>jf@jonathanfoulkes.com</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Cake List <<a
href="mailto:cake@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>cake@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>;
IETF IPPM WG <<a href="mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>ippm@ietf.org</a>>; libreqos <<a
href="mailto:libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; Dave Taht via
Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; Rpm <<a
href="mailto:rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>;
bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the
grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A semi
at <br>
55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load volume is <br>
larger.<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
> HNY Dave and all the rest,<br>
> <br>
> Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the<br>
> results. This one looks like a good start.<br>
> <br>
> Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, up<br>
> is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro<br>
> (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can’t deliver<br>
> reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. My<br>
> local loop is pretty congested.<br>
> <br>
> Here’s the latest Cloudflare test:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> And an Ookla test run just afterward:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other tests<br>
> run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro.<br>
> <br>
> Cheers,<br>
> <br>
> Jonathan<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm <br>
>> <<a href="mailto:rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here:<br>
>> <a href="https://speed.cloudflare.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://speed.cloudflare.com/</a><br>
>> <br>
>> I would really appreciate some independent verification of<br>
>> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - as<br>
>> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the<br>
>> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being<br>
>> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that)<br>
>> <br>
>> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where<br>
>> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached.<br>
>> <br>
>> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many,<br>
>> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their<br>
>> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and not<br>
>> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm pretty<br>
>> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than that.<br>
>> There's no way to change the test to run longer either.<br>
>> <br>
>> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as usual to<br>
>> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they<br>
>> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or cake,<br>
>> correctly.<br>
>> <br>
>> Love Always,<br>
>> The Grinch<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:<br>
>> <a
href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send=true>https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a><br>
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
>>
<image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>_______________________________________________<br>
>> Rpm mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Rpm mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Starlink mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
Starlink mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Bruce Perens K6BP<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset><pre><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Starlink mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre cols=72><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com">dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com</a> | -- Mark Twain<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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