<div dir="ltr"><div>Lovely pics, thank you, and the sawtooths are obvious, for a change, so in my mind they've cut the buffering back quite a bit since we last checked. The amount of TCP related loss remains low, at least according to the packet captures (not enough loss for tcp! a BDP should settle in at 40ms with a fifo, not 160+!).</div><div><br></div><div>Kind of related to my "glitches per minute" metric described here: <a href="https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/speedtests/" target="_blank">https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/speedtests/</a></div><div><br></div><div>What I'm interested in is the distribution pattern of the irtt udp loss. A way to plot that might be along the -1 vertical axis, but incremented down one further for every consecutive loss, and dots, colored, blue->green->yellow->orange->red - voip can survive 3/5 losses in a row fairly handily. Two ways</div><div><br></div><div> + axis as it is now</div><div>----------------------------------------got a packet ---------------------------------------------</div><div>B loss 1 loss 1 </div><div>G 2 loss in a row loss 2</div><div>Y 3rd loss los 3</div><div>O 4 </div><div>R 5 </div><div>R ....</div><div>R</div><div>R</div><div>R</div><div><br></div><div>and/or the same as above but plotting the rx vs tx loss</div><div class="gmail-yj6qo gmail-ajU" style="outline:none;padding:10px 0px;width:22px;margin:2px 0px 0px"><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 6:20 AM Nathan Owens <<a href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io">nathan@nathan.io</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Sorry, was rejected from the listserv, here's the google drive link for all 3 IRTT's visualized <br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SbUyvdlfdllgqrEcSSxvGdn3yN40vSx-?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1SbUyvdlfdllgqrEcSSxvGdn3yN40vSx-?usp=share_link</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 6:14 AM Nathan Owens <<a href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io" target="_blank">nathan@nathan.io</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I realized I goofed up my visualizations, here's all of them again: <br></div><div>I see a ton of loss on all of these! <br></div><div><br></div><div>While Luis was downloading/uploading... oof. <br><img src="cid:ii_lcw14bca8" alt="Screenshot 2023-01-14 at 6.13.50 AM.png" width="563" height="289"><br><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_lcw1350i6" alt="Screenshot 2023-01-14 at 6.12.53 AM.png" width="563" height="115"><br><br><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 3:44 PM Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com" target="_blank">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I am forced to conclude that waveform's upload test is broken in some cases and has been for some time. All the joy many have been feeling about their uplink speeds has to be cast away. Felt good, though, didn't it? <div><br></div><div>There is a *slight* possibility that there is some fq in the starlink network on tcp port 433. The first showing normal rtt growth and loss for cubic, the second, a low rate flow that is holding the line... but I didn't check to see if these were sequential or parallel.</div><div><br></div><div>The last is a cwnd plot, clearly showing the cubic sawtooth on the upload. </div><div><br></div><div>It's weirdly nice to be able to follow a port 433 stream, see the tls handshake put the website en'clair, and the rest go dark, and still trace the behaviors. </div><div><br></div><div>we're so going to lose this analytical ability with quic. I'm enjoying it while we still can. </div><div> </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 2:10 PM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The irtt run finished a few seconds before the flent run, but here are the results:<div><br></div><div><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKve13ssUMW1LLWOXLM2931Yx6uMHw8K/view?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKve13ssUMW1LLWOXLM2931Yx6uMHw8K/view?usp=share_link</a></div><div><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZXd64A0pfUedLr3FyhDNTHA7vxv8S2Gk/view?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZXd64A0pfUedLr3FyhDNTHA7vxv8S2Gk/view?usp=share_link</a></div><div><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rx64UPQHHz3IMNiJtb1oFqtqw2DvhvEE/view?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rx64UPQHHz3IMNiJtb1oFqtqw2DvhvEE/view?usp=share_link</a></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_lcv2lrgu2" alt="image.png" width="502" height="562"><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><img src="cid:ii_lcv2m8li3" alt="image.png" width="364" height="562"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Jonathan Bennett</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Hackaday.com</div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 3:30 PM Nathan Owens via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Here's Luis's run -- the top line below the edge of the graph is 200ms <br><img src="cid:ii_lcv19jh92" alt="Screenshot 2023-01-13 at 1.30.03 PM.png" width="563" height="268"><br><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:25 PM Luis A. Cornejo <<a href="mailto:luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com" target="_blank">luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dave,</div><div><br></div><div>Here is a run the way I think you wanted it.</div><div><br></div><div>irtt running for 5 min to your dallas server, followed by a waveform test, then a few seconds of inactivity, cloudflare test, a few more secs of nothing, flent test to dallas. Packet capture is currently uploading (will be done in 20 min or so), irtt JSON also in there (.zip file):</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FLWqrzNcM8aK-ZXQywNkZGFR81Fnzn-F?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FLWqrzNcM8aK-ZXQywNkZGFR81Fnzn-F?usp=share_link</a></div><div><br></div><div>-Luis<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 2:50 PM Dave Taht via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:30 PM Nathan Owens <<a href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io" target="_blank">nathan@nathan.io</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Here's the data visualization for Johnathan's Data<br><br><img src="cid:ii_lcuz3art1" alt="Screenshot 2023-01-13 at 12.29.15 PM.png" width="563" height="81"><br><div><br></div><div>You can see the path change at :12, :27, :42, :57 after the minute. Some paths are clearly busier than others with increased loss, latency, and jitter.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am so glad to see loss and bounded delay here. Also a bit of rigor regarding what traffic was active locally vs on the path would be nice, although it seems to line up with the known 15s starlink switchover thing (need a name for this), in this case, doing a few speedtests</div><div>while that irtt is running would show the impact(s) of whatever else they are up to.</div><div><br></div><div>It would also be my hope that the loss distribution in the middle portion of this data is good, not bursty, but we don't have a tool to take apart that. (I am so hopeless at json)</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div> <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 10:09 AM Nathan Owens <<a href="mailto:nathan@nathan.io" target="_blank">nathan@nathan.io</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I’ll run my visualization code on this result this afternoon and report back! </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:41 AM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">The irtt command, run with normal, light usage: <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SiVCiUYnx7nDTxIVOY5w-z20S2O059rA/view?usp=share_link" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SiVCiUYnx7nDTxIVOY5w-z20S2O059rA/view?usp=share_link</a><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Jonathan Bennett</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Hackaday.com</div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 11:26 AM Dave Taht <<a href="mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com" target="_blank">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">packet caps would be nice... all this is very exciting news.<br>
<br>
I'd so love for one or more of y'all reporting such great uplink<br>
results nowadays to duplicate and re-plot the original irtt tests we<br>
did:<br>
<br>
irtt client -i3ms -d300s <a href="http://myclosestservertoyou.starlink.taht.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">myclosestservertoyou.starlink.taht.net</a> -o whatever.json<br>
<br>
They MUST have changed their scheduling to get such amazing uplink<br>
results, in addition to better queue management.<br>
<br>
(for the record, my servers are de, london, fremont, sydney, dallas,<br>
newark, atlanta, singapore, mumbai)<br>
<br>
There's an R and gnuplot script for plotting that output around here<br>
somewhere (I have largely personally put down the starlink project,<br>
loaning out mine) - that went by on this list... I should have written<br>
a blog entry so I can find that stuff again.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:02 AM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink<br>
<<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 6:28 AM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On 13/01/2023 6:13 pm, Ulrich Speidel wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > From Auckland, New Zealand, using a roaming subscription, it puts me<br>
>> > in touch with a server 2000 km away. OK then:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > IP address: nix six.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > My thoughts shall follow later.<br>
>><br>
>> OK, so here we go.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm always a bit skeptical when it comes to speed tests - they're really<br>
>> laden with so many caveats that it's not funny. I took our new work<br>
>> Starlink kit home in December to give it a try and the other day finally<br>
>> got around to set it up. It's on a roaming subscription because our<br>
>> badly built-up campus really isn't ideal in terms of a clear view of the<br>
>> sky. Oh - and did I mention that I used the Starlink Ethernet adapter,<br>
>> not the WiFi?<br>
>><br>
>> Caveat 1: Location, location. I live in a place where the best Starlink<br>
>> promises is about 1/3 in terms of data rate you can actually get from<br>
>> fibre to the home at under half of Starlink's price. Read: There are few<br>
>> Starlink users around. I might be the only one in my suburb.<br>
>><br>
>> Caveat 2: Auckland has three Starlink gateways close by: Clevedon (which<br>
>> is at a stretch daytrip cycling distance from here), Te Hana and Puwera,<br>
>> the most distant of the three and about 130 km away from me as the crow<br>
>> flies. Read: My dishy can use any satellite that any of these three can<br>
>> see, and then depending on where I put it and how much of the southern<br>
>> sky it can see, maybe also the one in Hinds, 840 km away, although that<br>
>> is obviously stretching it a bit. Either way, that's plenty of options<br>
>> for my bits to travel without needing a lot of handovers. Why? Easy: If<br>
>> your nearest teleport is close by, then the set of satellites that the<br>
>> teleport can see and the set that you can see is almost the same, so you<br>
>> can essentially stick with the same satellite while it's in view for you<br>
>> because it'll also be in view for the teleport. Pretty much any bird<br>
>> above you will do.<br>
>><br>
>> And because I don't get a lot of competition from other users in my area<br>
>> vying for one of the few available satellites that can see both us and<br>
>> the teleport, this is about as good as it gets at 37S latitude. If I'd<br>
>> want it any better, I'd have to move a lot further south.<br>
>><br>
>> It'd be interesting to hear from Jonathan what the availability of home<br>
>> broadband is like in the Dallas area. I note that it's at a lower<br>
>> latitude (33N) than Auckland, but the difference isn't huge. I notice<br>
>> two teleports each about 160 km away, which is also not too bad. I also<br>
>> note Starlink availability in the area is restricted at the moment -<br>
>> oversubscribed? But if Jonathan gets good data rates, then that means<br>
>> that competition for bird capacity can't be too bad - for whatever reason.<br>
><br>
> I'm in Southwest Oklahoma, but Dallas is the nearby Starlink gateway. In cities, like Dallas, and Lawton where I live, there are good broadband options. But there are also many people that live outside cities, and the options are much worse. The low density userbase in rural Oklahoma and Texas is probably ideal conditions for Starlink.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Caveat 3: Backhaul. There isn't just one queue between me and whatever I<br>
>> talk to in terms of my communications. Traceroute shows about 10 hops<br>
>> between me and the University of Auckland via Starlink. That's 10<br>
>> queues, not one. Many of them will have cross traffic. So it's a bit<br>
>> hard to tell where our packets really get to wait or where they get<br>
>> dropped. The insidious bit here is that a lot of them will be between 1<br>
>> Gb/s and 10 Gb/s links, and with a bit of cross traffic, they can all<br>
>> turn into bottlenecks. This isn't like a narrowband GEO link of a few<br>
>> Mb/s where it's obvious where the dominant long latency bottleneck in<br>
>> your TCP connection's path is. Read: It's pretty hard to tell whether a<br>
>> drop in "speed" is due to a performance issue in the Starlink system or<br>
>> somewhere between Starlink's systems and the target system.<br>
>><br>
>> I see RTTs here between 20 ms and 250 ms, where the physical latency<br>
>> should be under 15 ms. So there's clearly a bit of buffer here along the<br>
>> chain that occasionally fills up.<br>
>><br>
>> Caveat 4: Handovers. Handover between birds and teleports is inevitably<br>
>> associated with a change in RTT and in most cases also available<br>
>> bandwidth. Plus your packets now arrive at a new queue on a new<br>
>> satellite while your TCP is still trying to respond to whatever it<br>
>> thought the queue on the previous bird was doing. Read: Whatever your<br>
>> cwnd is immediately after a handover, it's probably not what it should be.<br>
>><br>
>> I ran a somewhat hamstrung (sky view restricted) set of four Ookla<br>
>> <a href="http://speedtest.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">speedtest.net</a> tests each to five local servers. Average upload rate was<br>
>> 13 Mb/s, average down 75.5 Mb/s. Upload to the server of the ISP that<br>
>> Starlink seems to be buying its local connectivity from (Vocus Group)<br>
>> varied between 3.04 and 14.38 Mb/s, download between 23.33 and 52.22<br>
>> Mb/s, with RTTs between 37 and 56 ms not correlating well to rates<br>
>> observed. In fact, they were the ISP with consistently the worst rates.<br>
>><br>
>> Another ISP (MyRepublic) scored between 11.81 and 21.81 Mb/s up and<br>
>> between 106.5 and 183.8 Mb/s down, again with RTTs badly correlating<br>
>> with rates. Average RTT was the same as for Vocus.<br>
>><br>
>> Note the variation though: More or less a factor of two between highest<br>
>> and lowest rates for each ISP. Did MyRepublic just get lucky in my<br>
>> tests? Or is there something systematic behind this? Way too few tests<br>
>> to tell.<br>
>><br>
>> What these tests do is establish a ballpark.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm currently repeating tests with dish placed on a trestle closer to<br>
>> the heavens. This seems to have translated into fewer outages / ping<br>
>> losses (around 1/4 of what I had yesterday with dishy on the ground on<br>
>> my deck). Still good enough for a lengthy video Skype call with my folks<br>
>> in Germany, although they did comment about reduced video quality. But<br>
>> maybe that was the lighting or the different background as I wasn't in<br>
>> my usual spot with my laptop when I called them.<br>
><br>
> Clear view of the sky is king for Starlink reliability. I've got my dishy mounted on the back fence, looking up over an empty field, so it's pretty much best-case scenario here.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> ****************************************************************<br>
>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel<br>
>><br>
>> School of Computer Science<br>
>><br>
>> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)<br>
>><br>
>> The University of Auckland<br>
>> <a href="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz" target="_blank">u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz</a><br>
>> <a href="http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/</a><br>
>> ****************************************************************<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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<br>
<br>
-- <br>
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:<br>
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a><br>
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:</div><div><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a></div><div>Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC <br></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:</div><div><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a></div><div>Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC <br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:</div><div><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz</a></div><div>Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC <br></div></div></div>