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IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to fruition. No one wants it. I don’t want it, I see nothing but flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy in homes and business, and general consumer mistrust of such a model and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access. I will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way you can talk about. I cannot find a single benefit it offers. <br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><br><br></div></div><br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <<a href="mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com">rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com</a>> wrote:<br></div>
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Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+ <br>years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required. <br>Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises <br>regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they <br>have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are <br>also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect <br>that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk <br>mistakes get magnified every passing year.<br><br>A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the opportunity <br>to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and also <br>reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency * <br>distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.<br><br>Bob<br><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/">https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> but 100k+ people so not tiny.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> David Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <a href="https://www.usda.gov/broadband">https://www.usda.gov/broadband</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> after the Great Depression.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <a href="https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/">https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> Bob<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5">https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5</a> and the like<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> All the best,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Frank<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Skype: casioa5302ca<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (<a href="mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com">rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com</a>)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> (structural separation) right.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> OTA<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> factual<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <a href="http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html">http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html</a> Hence we get<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> January<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> 6th and an insurrection.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> day.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> obligation<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> franchise<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> miserably.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> monopoly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> empirically<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> in the U.S.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> And<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> breast<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> "news."<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> emotional<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> claim<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> trigger<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> sad<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> theme for undereducated populations.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> ourselves.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Bob<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html">https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> [1]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> government<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> worl...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <a href="http://cis471.blogspot.com">cis471.blogspot.com</a> [1]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> -------------------------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> From: Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> on behalf of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> To: David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm">david@lang.hm</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Cc: dan <<a href="mailto:dandenson@gmail.com">dandenson@gmail.com</a>>; Frantisek Borsik<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <<a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a>>; libreqos<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <<a href="mailto:libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net">libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; Dave Taht via Starlink<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; rjmcmahon<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <<a href="mailto:rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com">rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com</a>>;<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> bloat <<a href="mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net">bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> w/Comcast chat<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> Hi David,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> perspective.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> component<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> times of decades).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> many<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> such<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> systems.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> two<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> ways I see to address this structural problem:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> "reasonable" prices<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> access network<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> spanner<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> will<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> offer<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> to FTTH first....<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> design in a future-proof way...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Regards<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Sebastian<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> that I can see why it is happening.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>>> David Lang<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> _______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Starlink mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Links:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> ------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> [1]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <a href="https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html">https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> Links:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> ------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> [1] <a href="http://cis471.blogspot.com">http://cis471.blogspot.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> [2] tel:+421919416714<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">>> [3] tel:+420775230885<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">> <br></blockquote>
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