<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">The James Webb heat shielding was a very clever solution to keep the electronics cold.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">BUT, the "dark side" of the moon gets the full sun when we (from earth) observe a new moon.<br class=""><div class="">
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text-indent: 0px; widows: 2; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Gene</div><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">-----------------------------------</div><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Eugene Chang</div><div style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-transform: none; 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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 24, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Priyanka Sinha via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" class="">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">I was wondering why we are considering DC in space to be classical computers ? Given the ambient temperatures, should not the default configuration of a DC in space be quantum ?<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">In my conversations with Dr Thomas Aref, an experimental quantum computing physicist, I learnt that the primary operational challenge in quantum computing is in reaching and maintaining near 0K or -274 deg C temperatures.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I am unaware of the heat diffusion of qubits, but if they are low then bringing down the temperature from say -180 deg C to -274 deg C and maintaining it maybe much simpler than on earth? quantum DC then in space is feasible no ? maybe the only practical way for general purpose quantum computing?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Also, in case heat diffusion is the primary concern still, how about burying the quantum DC underground lunar soil on the dark side of the moon with thin atmosphere for heat dispersion as well as into lunar soil ?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">If this means we have more affordable and sustainable compute, yaay !</div><div dir="auto" class="">-priyanka <br class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">From: "Rodney W. Grimes" <<a href="mailto:starlink@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net</a>><br class="">To: Hesham ElBakoury <<a href="mailto:helbakoury@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">helbakoury@gmail.com</a>><br class="">Cc: Daniel Schien <<a href="mailto:Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk</a>>, starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>, Vint Cerf <vint=<a href="mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">e-impact@ietf.org</a><br class="">Bcc: <br class="">Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:36:39 -0700 (PDT)<br class="">Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)<br class="">> The article about the ASCEND project says:<br class="">
> "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need<br class="">
> for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A<br class="">
> significant part of a data center?s energy use is for cooling equipment,<br class="">
> accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low<br class="">
> as -292?F (-180?C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth?s shadow."<br class="">
<br class="">
They seem to have skipped over the con's of trying to cool equipment<br class="">
in space, there is no "mass" to cool into. There is no "air" to<br class="">
cool with. You have to use conduction to get the heat from your<br class="">
chips to the outer shell of the spacecraft, then you have to battle<br class="">
with tring to radiate that heat into a VACUUM! People think they<br class="">
have heat limiting issues today with ground based electronis, just<br class="">
wait tell they try to solve this in a spacecraft!!!<br class="">
<br class="">
Someone should calculate the radiated surface size needed to remove<br class="">
the heat generated by a 150W CPU into "space". It might enlighten<br class="">
some of these folks that think its all about the temperature of space,<br class="">
its not, its about the thermal mass of space being near 0.<br class="">
<br class="">
IMHO DC in space are going to have to find a solution to that MIPS<br class="">
per W problem first!<br class="">
<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Hesham<br class="">
> <br class="">
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <<a href="mailto:Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk</a>><br class="">
> wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time.<br class="">
> > So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6<br class="">
> > launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a<br class="">
> > re-usable rocket."<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair<br class="">
> > amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > "Data centers are big energy consumers ? between 2% and 3% of all global<br class="">
> > consumption ? a rate that is doubling every year."<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)<br class="">
> > in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's<br class="">
> > than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just<br class="">
> > completely wrong.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Daniel Schien<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Senior Lecturer in Computer Science<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > <a href="http://bris.ac.uk/software-engineering" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">bris.ac.uk/software-engineering</a><br class="">
> > Watch: <a href="https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB<br class="">
> > *Book a meeting*:<br class="">
> > <a href="https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki</a><br class="">
> > <<a href="https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/</a>><br class="">
> > ------------------------------<br class="">
> > *From:* E-impact <<a href="mailto:e-impact-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">e-impact-bounces@ietf.org</a>> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>><br class="">
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM<br class="">
> > *To:* <a href="mailto:tom@evslin.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">tom@evslin.com</a> <<a href="mailto:tom@evslin.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">tom@evslin.com</a>><br class="">
> > *Cc:* Michael Richardson <<a href="mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">mcr@sandelman.ca</a>>; starlink <<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">e-impact@ietf.org</a> <<a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">e-impact@ietf.org</a>><br class="">
> > *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber<br class="">
> > IXPs in space)<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > O&M will be a bear<br class="">
> > v<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13?PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the<br class="">
> > exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,<br class="">
> > things have not happened as quickly as I predicted<br class="">
> > <a href="https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > -----Original Message-----<br class="">
> > From: Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> On Behalf Of<br class="">
> > Michael Richardson via Starlink<br class="">
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM<br class="">
> > To: starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:e-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">e-impact@ietf.org</a><br class="">
> > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.<br class="">
> > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first<br class="">
> > objective"!<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > <a href="https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Cannes, November 14, 2022 ? Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between<br class="">
> > Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission<br class="">
> > to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and<br class="">
> > Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of<br class="">
> > Europe?s vast Horizon Europe research program.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > Digital technology?s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major<br class="">
> > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers<br class="">
> > in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in<br class="">
> > turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon<br class="">
> > emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures<br class="">
> > will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based<br class="">
> > data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon<br class="">
> > neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to<br class="">
> > develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and<br class="">
> > operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance<br class="">
> > technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD<br class="">
> > demonstrator.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data<br class="">
> > centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground<br class="">
> > counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe?s<br class="">
> > Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,<br class="">
> > reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in<br class="">
> > space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations<br class="">
> > of large infrastructures in orbit.<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > _______________________________________________<br class="">
> > Starlink mailing list<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
> > <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > _______________________________________________<br class="">
> > Starlink mailing list<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
> > <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > --<br class="">
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:<br class="">
> > Vint Cerf<br class="">
> > Google, LLC<br class="">
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor<br class="">
> > Reston, VA 20190<br class="">
> > +1 (571) 213 1346<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > until further notice<br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> ><br class="">
> > --<br class="">
> > E-impact mailing list<br class="">
> > <a href="mailto:E-impact@ietf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">E-impact@ietf.org</a><br class="">
> > <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact</a><br class="">
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