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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/10/2023 1:03 am, Alexandre
Petrescu via Starlink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
It is indeed interesting.<br>
<br>
Le 30/10/2023 à 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :<br>
><br>
> The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get
Starlink <br>
> equipment in for the international organisations to use.
Coverage <br>
> wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.<br>
><br>
I agree with these points.<br>
<br>
But it is more difficult than that.<br>
<br>
Indeed, if they can get starlink receivers in the place, then
there is <br>
need of power to power it. Maybe it is not easy to find
electricity.<br>
</blockquote>
I gather that Gazans are used to unreliable power, so many have
solar or generators. Of course, generators need fuel, which is in
short supply.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
<br>
The bandwidth problem - I dont know precisely what is it in this <br>
context. Maybe it's that there would be too many wifi users on a
<br>
starlink DISHY.<br>
</blockquote>
<p>It's that Starlink can only support so many Dishys per area on
the ground. Handwaving explanation: Think of each satellite as
having a number of slots on each frequency channel during which it
can communicate with ONE Dishy on the ground that the satellite
can see in that particular area. Once a Dishy takes that slot, no
other Dishy in the area can, because that would cause
interference. Now scale that by the number of Starlink satellites
that can be seen from the area, and you have a fairly rough idea
of how many slots there are available in total for that area.
Dishys will on average grab multiple slots, though, with each slot
worth a few Mb/s only. More Dishys therefore doesn't mean more
capacity. Now we know that Starlink is running out of capacity as
is in areas with medium population densities, such as the Ahr
valley in Germany, which suffered a flash flood a couple of years
ago that took out all terrestrial comms infrastructure:</p>
<p><img src="cid:part1.25c5Y3uA.0sDn90HE@auckland.ac.nz" alt=""><br>
If a place like this can overload Starlink with a population in
the low 10,000's, then a densely populated place like Gaza with
(like now) enhanced needs would be running out of capacity in no
time. The entire Gaza Strip is only about 3 Starlink cells in
size, and has over 2 million people in it. Most of whom have
family outside Gaza that they'd like to keep updated on a very
regular basis.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
<br>
There are more problems: I think I heard Israel opposes this idea
of <br>
delivery of starlink in that place. The question is _how_ they'd
like <br>
to oppose. Is it verbal opposition, is it opposition of delivery
of <br>
starlink DISHYs to the aream or is it jamming, or is it something
else. <br>
For the latter two, there is legislation in place that would guide
the <br>
way in which they could oppose, but that legislation is fragile.
For <br>
example, is there frequency allocation authority in that area, I'm
not sure.<br>
</blockquote>
<p>How they would oppose is a good question - I'm sure the Russians
would like to know, too.</p>
<p>Sure, you can try to keep Dishys out, but given that roaming
access has been available in the wider region for a while (cue
Turkey earthquake), I would be surprised if there weren't already
numerous Dishys in Gaza. Frequency allocation authority ... sounds
a bit like Israel having the authority to tell Hamas where to park
its cars. As Starlink isn't officially available in Israel yet and
it's a small market, the regulatory leverage of the Israeli
government against SpaceX is probably low. <br>
<br>
Jamming isn't really all that easy (again, ask Russia): To jam
Starlink successfully in an area, you'd have to jam the satellites
(probably about a dozen most of the time, and changing all the
time) from the ground in the same area as the Dishys using them. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
<br>
Another problem is the statement of intention of activating
starlink <br>
over the place. What does it mean in practice. I suppose it is
not <br>
that simple as turning a knob on. Because these numerous sats
already <br>
go above the area, and the area is very small. The borders cant
be <br>
respected very easily from that high. This kind of statement like
<br>
'activate starlink' over certain area was already made in the
recent <br>
past. And it is the same unclarity, because that area is a small
area. <br>
(there are other - more clear - statements like 'turn on iphone
sat <br>
emergency calls' over other areas in Europe. But these areas are
much <br>
larger (4 large countries in Europe). And they are accomodated by
<br>
legislation allowing frequency use. Whereas in the starlink
'activate <br>
over area x at war' there is no frequency agreements.)<br>
</blockquote>
Starlink can in principle now be provisioned anywhere between 53 deg
north and south, and I guess with a few interruptions in service
pretty much anywhere else, too. Whether a Starlink satellite will
provide service to a Dishy at location X below it is a decision made
in software, probably aboard the satellite itself, and that can be
controlled at will by SpaceX. <br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
<br>
Another problem is that, in case of delivery of starlink DISHYs:
_who_ <br>
uses starlink in that area at war. One might deliver starlink
terminals <br>
in the area at war only to designated persons (e.g. a responsible
UN <br>
person). But a skilled person might plug that starlink into an
existing <br>
cellular basestation for the benefit of all: all regular
smartphones <br>
might connect to the regular basestation which in turn might reach
the <br>
Internet via starlink. At that point, it's not clear how the <br>
responsible UN person might allow only some legitimate'
(humanitarian) <br>
smartphones to connect to these regular base stations.<br>
</blockquote>
Simple. You set a password on the Dishy's WiFi router and give it to
legit users only.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:623cfce5-06cb-4ba2-98d0-808157437ba8@gmail.com">
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
> It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours
have had <br>
> extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently
visiting here <br>
> and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got
flattened in her <br>
> absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his
previous <br>
> marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place
got <br>
> flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need
to ask him <br>
> what's happened since. They came here because they were sick
of Hamas.<br>
><br>
> On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for
MARS <br>
> (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first
Gulf War <br>
> when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from
Germany to <br>
> Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if
you have a <br>
> bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your
significant <br>
> other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently
they do <br>
> in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was
their <br>
> problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world
problems <br>
> compared to Gaza, though.<br>
><br>
> On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:<br>
>> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <br>
>> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting
people to<br>
>> people,<br>
>> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails
kept running -<br>
>> although censored - all through world war two - the red
cross,<br>
>> allowed<br>
>> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the
churches<br>
>> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...<br>
>><br>
>> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are
committed to the<br>
>> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx</a><br>
>><br>
>> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same
principles.<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07 AM the keyboard of geoff
goodfellow via<br>
>> Starlink <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > ➔➔<a href="https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660" moz-do-not-send="true">https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/1718638348812595660</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com">Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com</a><br>
>> > living as The Truth is True<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Starlink mailing list<br>
>> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -- <br>
>> Oct 30:<br>
>> <a href="https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html" moz-do-not-send="true">https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html</a><br>
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -- <br>
>> --<br>
>> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>><br>
> -- <br>
>
****************************************************************<br>
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel<br>
><br>
> School of Computer Science<br>
><br>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)<br>
><br>
> The University of Auckland<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz">u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz</a> <br>
> <a href="http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/</a><br>
>
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel
School of Computer Science
Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
The University of Auckland
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz">u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/">http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/</a>
****************************************************************
</pre>
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