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<p class="MsoNormal">I’m a Return-to-Office worker and we come in to the office to do our in-person meetings on Zoom.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Doug<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Nnagain <nnagain-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Bray, PhD via Nnagain<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 15, 2023 5:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Lang <david@lang.hm><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Bray, PhD <david.a.bray@gmail.com>; starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Network Neutrality is back! Let´s make the technical aspects heard this time! <nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NNagain] [Starlink] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt: >>why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?
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<p class="MsoNormal">As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized for the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday.
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<p class="MsoNormal">Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead!
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10 PM David Lang <<a href="mailto:david@lang.hm">david@lang.hm</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion was on the
<br>
topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming that we <br>
needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of telehealth <br>
as well.<br>
<br>
I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are compared to <br>
in-person meetings.<br>
<br>
David Lang<br>
<br>
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote:<br>
<br>
> There’s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO as long as<br>
> it isn’t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious listserv founder<br>
> Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via<br>
> ground-based connections too.<br>
><br>
> That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental health<br>
> services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardless of<br>
> LEO or not. The concern is two fold:<br>
><br>
> * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a<br>
> patient developing a relationship with a health provider<br>
><br>
> * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. One<br>
> might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidence<br>
> showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there’s actually a<br>
> continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by the<br>
> body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend or<br>
> foe. Since we cannot see a person’s hands and body movements we don’t know<br>
> if they’re coming to attack us or not.<br>
><br>
> So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we<br>
> were literally messing with our brains’ own natural biological processes?<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain <<br>
> <a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?<br>
>><br>
>> I've used it personally.<br>
>><br>
>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women<br>
>> have any<br>
>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth<br>
>> possible.<br>
>><br>
>> David Lang<br>
>><br>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They<br>
>> are<br>
>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the<br>
>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. So<br>
>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't work<br>
>> over<br>
>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance<br>
>> learning.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>> <a href="https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/" target="_blank">
https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain<br>
>> in<br>
>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth<br>
>> access<br>
>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a<br>
>> growing<br>
>>> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health needs.<br>
>>><br>
>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume<br>
>> healthcare<br>
>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to women.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Bob<br>
>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet<br>
>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do<br>
>>>> with shipping bits around?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to get<br>
>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every<br>
>>>> house.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were<br>
>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies<br>
>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or<br>
>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for<br>
>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger<br>
>>>> population areas?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past<br>
>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> David Lang<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Hi All,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity<br>
>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and<br>
>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm<br>
>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We<br>
>> probably<br>
>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work<br>
>> for<br>
>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill – no<br>
>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford<br>
>> proper<br>
>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. During<br>
>> the<br>
>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling of<br>
>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 had<br>
>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, were<br>
>>>>> third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to see how they<br>
>>>>> stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet, and doing<br>
>> all<br>
>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling the<br>
>> water,<br>
>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the<br>
>> shearing,<br>
>>>>> the plowing and the picking.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Because there was no electricity.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Bob<br>
>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain<br>
>>>>>>>> <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satcom<br>
>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to<br>
>> overcome<br>
>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem.<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digital<br>
>>>>>>>> divide -<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the goal<br>
>> to<br>
>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially<br>
>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at<br>
>> specifically<br>
>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not<br>
>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make a<br>
>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company because<br>
>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to service<br>
>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is<br>
>> literally<br>
>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it<br>
>> will<br>
>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a<br>
>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme<br>
>> locations,<br>
>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.<br>
>> Whitney).<br>
>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure<br>
>> that<br>
>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However given<br>
>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim<br>
>> period.<br>
>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from a<br>
>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually<br>
>> discussion<br>
>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlink<br>
>> was<br>
>>>>>>> mostly redacted.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between<br>
>>>>>> houses is 'too far'?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities with<br>
>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there are<br>
>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable enough.<br>
>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the cost<br>
>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority of<br>
>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), but<br>
>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you get<br>
>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or<br>
>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an<br>
>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI<br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan" target="_blank">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan</a> which is less<br>
>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> David Lang<br>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>>>>>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Nnagain mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br>
>><br>
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