<html><head></head><body style="zoom: 0%;"><div dir="auto">Elon Musk can afford to take starlink to markey without the government subsidies. It's past time to stop subsidizing the richest person on the planet.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto"><!-- tmjah_g_1299s -->Bob<!-- tmjah_g_1299e --></div>
<div class="gmail_quote" >On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:44 PM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
When someone is speaking with a C-suit of the 25Gbps ISP that still believes "in over-provisioning. QoS/QoE is for those ISPs which have less bandwidth than they need" (paraphrasing) - that particular someone knows that there is still SO much work in front of us.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
*trying to bring this thread back on track :-)
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So this thread started with FCC denial to Starlink. Those 640k locations will not be served in the coming years (1-5 years, for that particular amount of $). Their only hope was to get served by Starlink. If FCC will decide to give those money to someone else, it's total farce. Starlink, in this particular case, was their only hope. Do you really think that you will see WISPs popping up at those locations? Do you see FISPs doing it? Or anyone with DOCSIS? No way.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
This decision was pure political BS - a revenge against Musk. And those people living at these locations in question are the ones that will loose the most in the crossfire. It's sad. No matter how much mental gymnastics you want to apply here in order to legitimise this post-facto. No internet? Starlink would bring at least some internet connectivity to them - I, those people or anyone without a pure political bias in this case, should not give a flying F that "THiS iS nOt A rEaL 1gbps/500mbps bRoADband" or whatever. They want and need at least some internet connectivity. The only way to deliver it to them in a reasonable timeframe is Starlink.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
All the best,
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frantisek (Frank) Borsik<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">iMessage, mobile: +420775230885<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Skype: casioa5302ca<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><a href="mailto:frantisek.borsik@gmail.com" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">frantisek.borsik@gmail.com</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">
On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:48 PM Robert McMahon via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="zoom:0%">
<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Division was they have to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to that. And I was amazed. I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid who are representing these tough types? They're all women.
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
People ask me sometimes, when — when do you think it will it be enough? When will there be enough women on the court? And my answer is when there are nine. RBG
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Bob
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain <<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<pre>The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer <br>science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio. She was asked, <br>"What's the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population so <br>50/50." The others said, "Be realistic."<br><br>She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every technology <br>group.Though we have more improvements to be done.<br><br><a href="https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in" target="_blank">https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in</a>/<br><br>There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the denial <br>phase. This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk displayed <br>here by its constituents, are very much white male things. Not noticing <br>this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the group. My <br>judgment.<br><br>Bob<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(114,159,207);padding-left:1ex"> to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone<br> saying women's) views are not desired. I think a diversity of views if<br> extremely valuable.<br> <br> I just get my back up when people say things like 'there need to more<br> X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteristic that<br> someone is born with)<br> <br> David Lang<br> <br> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote:<br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(173,127,168);padding-left:1ex"> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume<br> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily<br> male also.<br> <br> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet<br> should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how<br> that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I hesitate<br> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and<br> messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone more<br> important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or protecting kids),<br> also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature<br> conclusions from.<br> <br> <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differently" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+differently</a><br> <br> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42 PM David Lang via Starlink<br> <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(138,226,52);padding-left:1ex"> <br> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services?<br> <br> I've used it personally.<br> <br> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that <br> women have any<br> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth <br> possible.<br> <br> David Lang<br> <br> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(252,175,62);padding-left:1ex"> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. <br> They are<br> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of <br> the<br> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may <br> be. So<br> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't <br> work over<br> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance <br> learning.<br> <br> <a href="https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153" target="_blank">https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153</a>/<br> <br> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should <br> remain in<br> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back <br> telehealth access<br> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a <br> growing<br> share of startups emerge to address women’s unique health needs.<br> <br> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume <br> healthcare<br> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to <br> women.<br> <br> Bob<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(233,185,110);padding-left:1ex"> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet<br> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to <br> do<br> with shipping bits around?<br> <br> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to <br> get<br> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every<br> house.<br> <br> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem <br> were<br> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public <br> agencies<br> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? <br> or<br> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses <br> for<br> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the <br> larger<br> population areas?<br> <br> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past<br> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today.<br> <br> David Lang<br> <br> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:<br> <br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi All,
<br>
<br>
We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for
<br>
electricity
<br>
decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health
<br>
and
<br>
distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to
<br>
follow.
<br>
<br>
A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm
<br>
skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We
<br>
probably
<br>
need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best
<br>
work for
<br>
our country and to be an example to the world.
<br>
<br>
A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill
<br>
– no
<br>
matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford
<br>
proper
<br>
medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth.
<br>
During the
<br>
1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a
<br>
sampling of
<br>
Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158
<br>
had
<br>
perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported,
<br>
were
<br>
third-degree tears, “tears so bad that it is difficult to see how
<br>
they
<br>
stand on their feet.” But they were standing on their feet, and
<br>
doing all
<br>
the chores that Hill Country wives had always done – hauling the
<br>
water,
<br>
hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the
<br>
shearing,
<br>
the plowing and the picking.
<br>
<br>
Because there was no electricity.
<br>
<br>
Bob
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi Frantisek,
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain
<br>
<<a href="mailto:nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of
<br>
satcom
<br>
such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to
<br>
overcome
<br>
the 'tangled fiber' problem.
<br>
<br>
No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of
<br>
digital
<br>
divide -
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the
<br>
goal to
<br>
make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially
<br>
everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at
<br>
specifically
<br>
reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is
<br>
not
<br>
necessarily location but financial means).
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to
<br>
make a
<br>
profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company
<br>
because
<br>
of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to
<br>
service
<br>
people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is
<br>
literally
<br>
none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there,
<br>
it will
<br>
be like 10 years down the road.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a
<br>
universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme
<br>
locations,
<br>
no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt.
<br>
Whitney).
<br>
And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is
<br>
infrastructure that
<br>
will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However
<br>
given
<br>
that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim
<br>
period.
<br>
I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that
<br>
from a
<br>
technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually
<br>
discussion
<br>
requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by
<br>
starlink was
<br>
mostly redacted.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between
<br>
houses is 'too far'?
<br>
<br>
we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities
<br>
with
<br>
housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there
<br>
are
<br>
apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable
<br>
enough.
<br>
When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the
<br>
cost
<br>
of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the
<br>
majority of
<br>
the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure),
<br>
but
<br>
it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once
<br>
you get
<br>
out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or
<br>
village becomes a major undertaking.
<br>
<br>
Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an
<br>
'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI
<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan</a> which is
<br>
less
<br>
than an hours drive from the state capitol.
<br>
<br>
David Lang
<br>
<hr>
<br>
Nnagain mailing list
<br><a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></blockquote></blockquote><hr><br></blockquote> Starlink mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br> <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br></blockquote> <br> <br> <br> <br></blockquote></blockquote><hr><br>Nnagain mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>_______________________________________________
<br>
Nnagain mailing list
<br><a href="mailto:Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net" target="_blank">Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<pre class="blue"><hr><br>Nnagain mailing list<br>Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net<br><a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain</a><br></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>