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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 30/04/2024 à 21:04, Eugene Y Chang
via Starlink a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become.
(Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this
community care about.) The discussion doesn’t shed light on the
following scenarios.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<ul class="MailOutline">
<li class="">While watching stream content, activating
controls needed to switch content sometimes (often?) have
long pauses. <br class="">
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It is true.</p>
<p>Switching between IP video channels has a much longer latency
than switching a dial on an analog TV tuner. This latency is
also exhibited on radio listening, be it analog or digital DAB.<br>
</p>
<p>
<blockquote type="cite">I attribute that to buffer bloat and high
latency.</blockquote>
</p>
<p>It has multiple sources. I suspect the highest latency factor is
that of digital processing compared to analog processing; the next
factor of latency (by size) may be some buffers related to data
transmission, such as IP.</p>
<p>The digital processing has huge advantages over analog processing
but the large latency of switching between channels (aka 'tuning
in') is a clear inconvenient.<br>
</p>
<p>Alex<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org">
<div class="">
<ul class="MailOutline">
<li class=""><br class="">
</li>
<li class="">With a happy household user watching streaming
media, a second user could have terrible shopping experience
with Amazon. The interactive response could be (is often)
horrible. (Personally, I would be doing email and working on
a shared doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies to more
people.)</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">How can we deliver graceful performance to both
persons in a household?</div>
<div class="">Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to
improve?</div>
<div class="">(I said “graceful” to allow technical
flexibility.)</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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<div><br class="">
Gene<br class="">
----------------------------------------------<br class="">
Eugene Chang</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
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</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 30, 2024, at 8:05 AM, Colin_Higbie
via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">[SM] How that? Capacity and latency are
largely independent... think a semi truck full of
harddisks from NYC to LA has decent
capacity/'bandwidth' but lousy latency...<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Sebastian, nothing but agreement with you that
capacity and latency are largely independent (my old
dial-up modem connections 25 years ago at ~50kbps had
much lower latencies than my original geostationary
satellite connections with higher bandwidth). I also
agree that both are important in their own ways. I had
originally responded (this thread seems to have come
back to life from a few months ago) to a point about
10Mbps capacity being sufficient, and that as long as
a user has a 10Mbps connection, latency improvements
would provide more benefit to most users at that point
than further bandwidth increases. I responded that the
minimum "sufficient" metric should be higher than
10Mpbs, probably at 25Mbps to support 4K HDR, which is
the streaming standard today and likely will be for
the foreseeable future. <br class="">
<br class="">
I have not seen any responses that provided a sound
argument against that conclusion. A lot of responses
like "but 8K is coming" (it's not, only experimental
YouTube videos showcase these resolutions to the
general public, no studio is making 8K content and no
streaming service offers anything in 8K or higher) and
"I don't need to watch 4K, 1080p is sufficient for me,
so it should be for everyone else too" (personal
preference should never be a substitute for market
data). Neither of those arguments refutes objective
industry standards: 25Mbps is the minimum required
bandwidth for multiple of the biggest streaming
services.<br class="">
<br class="">
None of this intends to suggest that we should ease
off pressure on ISPs to provide low latency
connections that don't falter under load. Just want to
be sure we all recognize that the floor bandwidth
should be set no lower than 25Mbps. <br class="">
<br class="">
However, I would say that depending on usage, for a
typical family use, where 25Mbps is "sufficient" for
any single stream, even 50ms latency (not great, but
much better than a system will have with bad
bufferbloat problems that can easily fall to the
hundreds of milliseconds) is also "sufficient" for all
but specialized applications or competitive gaming. I
would also say that if you already have latency at or
below 20ms, further gains on latency will be
imperceptible to almost all users, where bandwidth
increases will at least allow for more simultaneous
connections, even if any given stream doesn't really
benefit much beyond about 25Mbps. <br class="">
<br class="">
I would also say that for working remotely, for those
of us who work with large audio or video files, the
ability to transfer multi-hundred MB files from a
1Gbps connection in several seconds instead of several
minutes for a 25Mbps connection is a meaningful boost
to work effectiveness and productivity, where a
latency reduction from 50ms to 10ms wouldn't really
yield any material changes to our work.<br class="">
<br class="">
Is 100Mbps and 10ms latency better than 25Mbps and
50ms latency? Of course. Moving to ever more capacity
and lower latencies is a good thing on both fronts,
but where hardware and engineering costs tend to scale
non-linearly as you start pushing against current
limits, "sufficiency" is an important metric to keep
in mind. Cost matters.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
On Behalf Of <a
href="mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br
class="">
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 10:41 AM<br class="">
To: <a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br
class="">
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 11<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br
class="">
<br class="">
Message: 1<br class="">
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 16:32:51 +0200<br class="">
From: Sebastian Moeller <<a
href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">moeller0@gmx.de</a>><br
class="">
To: Alexandre Petrescu <<a
href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:D3B2FA53-589F-4F35-958C-4679EC4414D9@gmx.de"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">D3B2FA53-589F-4F35-958C-4679EC4414D9@gmx.de</a>><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain;<span class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space:pre"> </span>charset=utf-8<br
class="">
<br class="">
Hi Alexandre,<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 30. Apr 2024, at
16:25, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Colin,<br class="">
8K usefulness over 4K: the higher the resolution the
more it will be possible to zoom in into paused
images. It is one of the advantages. People dont
do that a lot these days but why not in the future.<br
class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
[SM] Because that is how in the past we envisioned the
future, see here <a
href="h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwjceFcF2Q"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwjceFcF2Q</a>
'enhance'...<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Spotify lower quality
than CD and still usable: one would check not
Spotify, but other services for audiophiles; some of
these use 'DSD' formats which go way beyond the so
called high-def audio of 384khz sampling freqs.
They dont 'stream' but download. It is these
higher-than-384khz sampling rates equivalent (e.g.
DSD1024 is the equivalent of, I think of something
like 10 times CD quality, I think). If Spotify is
the king of streamers, in the future other companies
might become the kings of something else than
'streaming', a name yet to be invented.<br class="">
For each of them, it is true, normal use will not
expose any more advantage than the previous version
(no advantage of 8K over 4K, no advantage of 88KHz
DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the progress is
ongoing on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to
DVD audio or to SD (standard definition video).<br
class="">
Finally, 8K and DSD per se are requirements of just
bandwidth. The need of latency should be exposed
there, and that is not straightforward. But higher
bandwidths will come with lower latencies anyways. <br
class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
[SM] How that? Capacity and latency are largely
independent... think a semi truck full of harddisks
from NYC to LA has decent capacity/'bandwidth' but
lousy latency...<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">The quest of latency
requirements might be, in fact, a quest to see how
one could use that low latency technology that is
possible and available anyways.<br class="">
Alex<br class="">
Le 30/04/2024 à 16:00, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a
écrit :<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">David Fernández,
those bitrates are safe numbers, but many streams
could get by with less at those resolutions. H.265
compression is at a variable bit rate with simpler
scenes requiring less bandwidth. Note that 4K with
HDR (30 bits per pixel rather than 24)
consistently also fits within 25Mbps.<br class="">
<br class="">
David Lang, HDR is a requirement for 4K
programming. That is not to say that all 4K
streams are in HDR, but in setting a required
bandwidth, because 4K signals can include HDR, the
required bandwidth must accommodate and allow for
HDR. That said, I believe all modern 4K
programming on Netflix and Amazon Prime is HDR.
Note David Fernández' point that Spain
independently reached the same conclusion as the
US streaming services of 25Mbps requirement for
4K.<br class="">
<br class="">
Visually, to a person watching and assuming an
OLED (or microLED) display capable of showing the
full color and contrast gamut of HDR (LCD can't
really do it justice, even with miniLED
backlighting), the move to HDR from SDR is more
meaningful in most situations than the move from
1080p to 4K. I don't believe going to further
resolutions, scenes beyond 4K (e.g., 8K), will add
anything meaningful to a movie or television
viewer over 4K. Video games could benefit from the
added resolution, but lens aberration in cameras
along with focal length and limited depth of field
render blurriness of even a sharp picture greater
than the pixel size in most scenes beyond about 4K
- 5.5K. Video games don’t suffer this problem
because those scenes are rendered, eliminating
problems from camera lenses. So video games may
still benefit from 8K resolution, but streaming
programming won’t. <br class="">
<br class="">
There is precedent for this in the audio streaming
world: audio streaming bitrates have retracted
from prior peaks. Even though 48kHz and higher
bitrate audio available on DVD is superior to the
audio quality of 44.1kHz CDs, Spotify and Apple
and most other streaming services stream music at
LOWER quality than CD. It’s good enough for most
people to not notice the difference. I don’t see
much push in the foreseeable future for
programming beyond UHD (4K + HDR). That’s not to
say never, but there’s no real benefit to it with
current camera tech and screen sizes. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Conclusion: for video streaming needs over the
next decade or so, 25Mbps should be appropriate.
As David Fernández rightly points out, H.266 and
other future protocols will improve compression
capabilities and reduce bandwidth needs at any
given resolution and color bit depth, adding a bit
more headroom for small improvements. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
On Behalf Of <br class="">
<a
href="mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br
class="">
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 9:31 AM<br class="">
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 9<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 2<br class="">
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 +0200<br class="">
From: David Fernández <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidfdzp@gmail.com"><davidfdzp@gmail.com></a><br
class="">
To: starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CAC=tZ0rrmWJUNLvGupw6K8ogADcYLq-eyW7Bjb209oNDWGfVSA@mail.gmail.com"><CAC=tZ0rrmWJUNLvGupw6K8ogADcYLq-eyW7Bjb209oNDWGfVSA@mail.gmail.com></a><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br
class="">
<br class="">
Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left
behind SD definitively and moved to HD as standard
quality, also starting to regularly broadcast a
channel with 4K quality.<br class="">
<br class="">
A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second,
handled with the HEVC compression codec (H.265),
and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 Mbit/s.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s.<br
class="">
<br class="">
For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it
may be hard to distinguish it visually from the HD
version of the same video (this was also confirmed
by SBTVD Forum Tests).<br class="">
<br class="">
Then, 8K will come, eventually, requiring a
minimum of ~32 Mbit/s:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-sh">https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-sh</a><br
class="">
ape-in-europe<br class="">
<br class="">
The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the
required data rates by at least 27%, at the
expense of more computing power required, but
somehow it is claimed it will be more energy
efficient.<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-broa">https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-broa</a><br
class="">
dcast-and-broadband-television<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT)<br
class="">
From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br class="">
To: Colin_Higbie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CHigbie1@Higbie.name"><CHigbie1@Higbie.name></a><br
class="">
Cc: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srss5qrq-7973-5q87-823p-30pn7o308608@ynat.uz"><srss5qrq-7973-5q87-823p-30pn7o308608@ynat.uz></a><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Amazon, youtube set explicitly to 4k (I didn't say
HDR)<br class="">
<br class="">
David Lang<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Colin_Higbie wrote:<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Date: Tue, 30 Apr
2024 01:30:21 +0000<br class="">
From: Colin_Higbie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CHigbie1@Higbie.name"><CHigbie1@Higbie.name></a><br
class="">
To: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br class="">
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a> <br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: RE: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
<br class="">
Was that 4K HDR (not SDR) using the standard
protocols that <br class="">
streaming<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
services use (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+,
etc.) or was it just some YouTube 4K SDR videos?
YouTube will show "HDR" on the gear icon for
content that's 4K HDR. If it only shows "4K"
instead of "HDR," then means it's SDR.<br class="">
Note that if YouTube, if left to the default of
Auto for streaming resolution it will also
automatically drop the quality to something that
fits within the bandwidth and most of the "4K"
content on YouTube is low-quality and not true UHD
content (even beyond missing HDR). For example,
many smartphones will record 4K video, but their
optics are not sufficient to actually have
distinct per-pixel image detail, meaning it
compresses down to a smaller image with no real
additional loss in picture quality, but only
because it's really a 4K UHD stream to begin with.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Note that 4K
video compression codecs are lossy, so the lower
<br class="">
quality the<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
initial image, the lower the bandwidth needed to
convey the stream w/o additional quality loss. The
needed bandwidth also changes with scene
complexity. Falling confetti, like on Newy Year's
Eve or at the Super Bowl make for one of the most
demanding scenes. Lots of detailed fire and
explosions with fast-moving fast panning full
dynamic backgrounds are also tough for a
compressed signal to preserve (but not as hard as
a screen full of falling confetti).<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I'm dubious that
8Mbps can handle that except for some of the <br
class="">
simplest<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
video, like cartoons or fairly static scenes like
the news. Those scenes don't require much data,
but that's not the case for all 4K HDR scenes by
any means.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">It's obviously in
Netflix and the other streaming services'
interest <br class="">
to<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
be able to sell their more expensive 4K HDR
service to as many people as possible. There's a
reason they won't offer it to anyone with less
than 25Mbps – they don't want the complaints and
service calls. Now, to be fair, 4K HDR definitely
doesn’t typically require 25Mbps, but it's to
their credit that they do include a small
bandwidth buffer. In my experience monitoring
bandwidth usage for 4K HDR streaming, 15Mbps is
the minimum if doing nothing else and that will
frequently fall short, depending on the 4K HDR
content.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Cheers,<br
class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br
class="">
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:40 PM<br class="">
To: Colin Higbie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:colin.higbie@scribl.com"><colin.higbie@scribl.com></a><br
class="">
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
<br class="">
hmm, before my DSL got disconnected (the carrier
decided they didn't <br class="">
want<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
to support it any more), I could stream 4k at 8Mb
down if there <br class="">
wasn't too much other activity on the network
(doing so at 2x speed <br class="">
was a problem)<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">David Lang<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, Colin Higbie via Starlink
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Date: Fri, 15
Mar 2024 18:32:36 +0000<br class="">
From: Colin Higbie via Starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Reply-To: Colin Higbie
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:colin.higbie@scribl.com"><colin.higbie@scribl.com></a><br class="">
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a> <br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I have now
been trying to break the common conflation
that <br class="">
download<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
"speed"<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">means
anything at all for day to day, minute to
minute, second to <br class="">
second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now, for
over 14 years. Am I <br class="">
succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and
keep pointing at really <br class="">
terrible latency under load and wifi
weirdnesses for many existing<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
100/20 services today.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">While I
completely agree that latency has bigger
impact on how<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think
that 10Mbit is too low for some standard
applications regardless of latency: with the more
recent availability of 4K and higher streaming,
that does require a higher minimum bandwidth to
work at all. One could argue that no one NEEDS 4K
streaming, but many families would view this as an
important part of what they do with their Internet
(Starlink makes this reliably possible at our
farmhouse). 4K HDR-supporting TV's are among the
most popular TVs being purchased in the U.S.
today. Netflix, Amazon, Max, Disney and other
streaming services provide a substantial portion
of 4K HDR content.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">So, I agree
that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR
streaming. <br class="">
100/20<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple
concurrent 4K users or a 1-2 8K streams.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">For me, not
claiming any special expertise on market
needs, just my <br class="">
own<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
personal assessment on what typical families will
need and care about:<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Latency: below
50ms under load always feels good except for
some <br class="">
intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to
getting loaded latency <br class="">
further below ~20ms for typical applications,
with an exception for <br class="">
cloud-based gaming that benefits with lower
latency all the way <br class="">
down to about 5ms for young, really fast
players, the rest of us <br class="">
won't be able to tell the difference)<br
class="">
<br class="">
Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if not
doing UHD video <br class="">
streaming<br class="">
<br class="">
Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing UHD
video streaming, <br class="">
depending on # of streams or if wanting to be
ready for 8k<br class="">
<br class="">
Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for
quality video <br class="">
conferencing, higher only needed for multiple
concurrent outbound <br class="">
streams<br class="">
<br class="">
So, for example (and ignoring upload for
this), I would rather have<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of
25Mbps than latency of 1ms with a max bandwidth of
10Mbps, because the super-low latency doesn't
solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to
watch 4K HDR content. But, I'd also rather have
latency of 20ms with 100Mbps DL, then latency that
exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL bandwidth.
I think the important thing is to reach "good
enough" on both, not just excel at one while
falling short of "good enough" on the other.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Note that
Starlink handles all of this well, including
kids <br class="">
watching<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD Netflix,
except the upload speed occasionally tops at under
3Mbps for me, causing quality degradation for
outbound video calls (or used to, it seems to have
gotten better in recent months – no problems since
sometime in 2023).<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Cheers,<br
class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Starlink mailing list<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
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class="">
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br
class="">
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class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
------------------------------<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 2<br class="">
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 16:40:58 +0200<br class="">
From: Alexandre Petrescu <<a
href="mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
To: Sebastian Moeller <<a
href="mailto:moeller0@gmx.de"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">moeller0@gmx.de</a>><br
class="">
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:727b07d9-9dc3-43b7-8e17-50b6b7a4444a@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">727b07d9-9dc3-43b7-8e17-50b6b7a4444a@gmail.com</a>><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Le 30/04/2024 à 16:32, Sebastian Moeller a écrit :<br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi Alexandre,<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 30. Apr 2024, at
16:25, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Colin,<br class="">
8K usefulness over 4K: the higher the resolution
the more it will be possible to zoom in into
paused images. It is one of the advantages.
People dont do that a lot these days but why not
in the future.<br class="">
</blockquote>
[SM] Because that is how in the past we envisioned
the future, see here <a
href="h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwjceFcF2Q"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwjceFcF2Q</a>
'enhance'...<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Spotify lower
quality than CD and still usable: one would check
not Spotify, but other services for audiophiles;
some of these use 'DSD' formats which go way
beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz
sampling freqs. They dont 'stream' but download.
It is these higher-than-384khz sampling rates
equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the equivalent of, I
think of something like 10 times CD quality, I
think). If Spotify is the king of streamers, in
the future other companies might become the kings
of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to
be invented.<br class="">
For each of them, it is true, normal use will not
expose any more advantage than the previous
version (no advantage of 8K over 4K, no advantage
of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the
progress is ongoing on and on, and nobody comes
back to CD or to DVD audio or to SD (standard
definition video).<br class="">
Finally, 8K and DSD per se are requirements of
just bandwidth. The need of latency should be
exposed there, and that is not straightforward.
But higher bandwidths will come with lower
latencies anyways.<br class="">
</blockquote>
[SM] How that? Capacity and latency are largely
independent... think a semi truck full of harddisks
from NYC to LA has decent capacity/'bandwidth' but
lousy latency...<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
I agree with you: two distinct parameters, bandwidth
and latency. But they evolve simultenously,
relatively bound by a constant relationship. For any
particular link technology (satcom is one) the
bandwidth and latency are in a constant relationship.
One grows, the other diminishes. There are exceptions
too, in some details.<br class="">
<br class="">
(as for the truck full of harddisks, and jumbo jets
full of DVDs - they are just concepts: striking good
examples of how enormous bandwidths are possible, but
still to see in practice; physicsts also talked about
a train transported by a train transported by a train
and so on, to overcome the speed of light: another
striking example, but not in practice).<br class="">
<br class="">
Alex<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">The quest of
latency requirements might be, in fact, a quest to
see how one could use that low latency technology
that is possible and available anyways.<br
class="">
Alex<br class="">
Le 30/04/2024 à 16:00, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a
écrit :<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">David Fernández,
those bitrates are safe numbers, but many
streams could get by with less at those
resolutions. H.265 compression is at a variable
bit rate with simpler scenes requiring less
bandwidth. Note that 4K with HDR (30 bits per
pixel rather than 24) consistently also fits
within 25Mbps.<br class="">
<br class="">
David Lang, HDR is a requirement for 4K
programming. That is not to say that all 4K
streams are in HDR, but in setting a required
bandwidth, because 4K signals can include HDR,
the required bandwidth must accommodate and
allow for HDR. That said, I believe all modern
4K programming on Netflix and Amazon Prime is
HDR. Note David Fernández' point that Spain
independently reached the same conclusion as the
US streaming services of 25Mbps requirement for
4K.<br class="">
<br class="">
Visually, to a person watching and assuming an
OLED (or microLED) display capable of showing
the full color and contrast gamut of HDR (LCD
can't really do it justice, even with miniLED
backlighting), the move to HDR from SDR is more
meaningful in most situations than the move from
1080p to 4K. I don't believe going to further
resolutions, scenes beyond 4K (e.g., 8K), will
add anything meaningful to a movie or television
viewer over 4K. Video games could benefit from
the added resolution, but lens aberration in
cameras along with focal length and limited
depth of field render blurriness of even a sharp
picture greater than the pixel size in most
scenes beyond about 4K - 5.5K. Video games don’t
suffer this problem because those scenes are
rendered, eliminating problems from camera
lenses. So video games may still benefit from 8K
resolution, but streaming programming won’t.<br
class="">
<br class="">
There is precedent for this in the audio
streaming world: audio streaming bitrates have
retracted from prior peaks. Even though 48kHz
and higher bitrate audio available on DVD is
superior to the audio quality of 44.1kHz CDs,
Spotify and Apple and most other streaming
services stream music at LOWER quality than CD.
It’s good enough for most people to not notice
the difference. I don’t see much push in the
foreseeable future for programming beyond UHD
(4K + HDR). That’s not to say never, but there’s
no real benefit to it with current camera tech
and screen sizes.<br class="">
<br class="">
Conclusion: for video streaming needs over the
next decade or so, 25Mbps should be appropriate.
As David Fernández rightly points out, H.266 and
other future protocols will improve compression
capabilities and reduce bandwidth needs at any
given resolution and color bit depth, adding a
bit more headroom for small improvements.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
On Behalf Of <br class="">
<a
href="mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br
class="">
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 9:31 AM<br
class="">
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 9<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Message: 2<br class="">
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 +0200<br
class="">
From: David Fernández
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davidfdzp@gmail.com"><davidfdzp@gmail.com></a><br class="">
To: starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CAC=tZ0rrmWJUNLvGupw6K8ogADcYLq-eyW7Bjb209oNDWGfVSA@mail.gmail.com"><CAC=tZ0rrmWJUNLvGupw6K8ogADcYLq-eyW7Bjb209oNDWGfVSA@mail.gmail.com></a><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br
class="">
<br class="">
Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left
behind SD definitively and moved to HD as
standard quality, also starting to regularly
broadcast a channel with 4K quality.<br class="">
<br class="">
A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second,
handled with the HEVC compression codec (H.265),
and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 Mbit/s.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s.<br
class="">
<br class="">
For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s,
it may be hard to distinguish it visually from
the HD version of the same video (this was also
confirmed by SBTVD Forum Tests).<br class="">
<br class="">
Then, 8K will come, eventually, requiring a
minimum of ~32 Mbit/s:<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-s">https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-s</a><br
class="">
hape-in-europe<br class="">
<br class="">
The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the
required data rates by at least 27%, at the
expense of more computing power required, but
somehow it is claimed it will be more energy
efficient.<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-bro">https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-bro</a><br
class="">
adcast-and-broadband-television<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
David<br class="">
<br class="">
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT)<br
class="">
From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br
class="">
To: Colin_Higbie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CHigbie1@Higbie.name"><CHigbie1@Higbie.name></a><br
class="">
Cc: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:srss5qrq-7973-5q87-823p-30pn7o308608@ynat.uz"><srss5qrq-7973-5q87-823p-30pn7o308608@ynat.uz></a><br
class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8";
Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Amazon, youtube set explicitly to 4k (I didn't
say HDR)<br class="">
<br class="">
David Lang<br class="">
<br class="">
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Colin_Higbie wrote:<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Date: Tue, 30
Apr 2024 01:30:21 +0000<br class="">
From: Colin_Higbie
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CHigbie1@Higbie.name"><CHigbie1@Higbie.name></a><br class="">
To: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br
class="">
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a> <br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: RE: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
<br class="">
Was that 4K HDR (not SDR) using the standard
protocols that <br class="">
streaming<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
services use (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+,
etc.) or was it just some YouTube 4K SDR videos?
YouTube will show "HDR" on the gear icon for
content that's 4K HDR. If it only shows "4K"
instead of "HDR," then means it's SDR.<br
class="">
Note that if YouTube, if left to the default of
Auto for streaming resolution it will also
automatically drop the quality to something that
fits within the bandwidth and most of the "4K"
content on YouTube is low-quality and not true
UHD content (even beyond missing HDR). For
example, many smartphones will record 4K video,
but their optics are not sufficient to actually
have distinct per-pixel image detail, meaning it
compresses down to a smaller image with no real
additional loss in picture quality, but only
because it's really a 4K UHD stream to begin
with.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Note that 4K
video compression codecs are lossy, so the
lower <br class="">
quality the<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
initial image, the lower the bandwidth needed to
convey the stream w/o additional quality loss.
The needed bandwidth also changes with scene
complexity. Falling confetti, like on Newy
Year's Eve or at the Super Bowl make for one of
the most demanding scenes. Lots of detailed fire
and explosions with fast-moving fast panning
full dynamic backgrounds are also tough for a
compressed signal to preserve (but not as hard
as a screen full of falling confetti).<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I'm dubious
that 8Mbps can handle that except for some of
the <br class="">
simplest<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
video, like cartoons or fairly static scenes
like the news. Those scenes don't require much
data, but that's not the case for all 4K HDR
scenes by any means.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">It's obviously
in Netflix and the other streaming services' <br
class="">
interest to<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
be able to sell their more expensive 4K HDR
service to as many people as possible. There's a
reason they won't offer it to anyone with less
than 25Mbps – they don't want the complaints and
service calls. Now, to be fair, 4K HDR
definitely doesn’t typically require 25Mbps, but
it's to their credit that they do include a
small bandwidth buffer. In my experience
monitoring bandwidth usage for 4K HDR streaming,
15Mbps is the minimum if doing nothing else and
that will frequently fall short, depending on
the 4K HDR content.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Cheers,<br
class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: David Lang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david@lang.hm"><david@lang.hm></a><br
class="">
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:40 PM<br
class="">
To: Colin Higbie
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:colin.higbie@scribl.com"><colin.higbie@scribl.com></a><br class="">
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Itʼs the Latency, FCC<br
class="">
<br class="">
hmm, before my DSL got disconnected (the
carrier decided they <br class="">
didn't want<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
to support it any more), I could stream 4k at
8Mb down if there <br class="">
wasn't too much other activity on the network
(doing so at 2x speed <br class="">
was a problem)<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">David Lang<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, Colin Higbie via Starlink
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Date: Fri, 15
Mar 2024 18:32:36 +0000<br class="">
From: Colin Higbie via Starlink
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Reply-To: Colin Higbie
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:colin.higbie@scribl.com"><colin.higbie@scribl.com></a><br class="">
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">"starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"</a> <br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"><starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net></a><br
class="">
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency,
FCC<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I have now
been trying to break the common conflation
that <br class="">
download<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
"speed"<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">means
anything at all for day to day, minute to
minute, second to <br class="">
second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now,
for over 14 years. Am I <br class="">
succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and
keep pointing at really <br class="">
terrible latency under load and wifi
weirdnesses for many <br class="">
existing<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
100/20 services today.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">While I
completely agree that latency has bigger
impact on how<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think
that 10Mbit is too low for some standard
applications regardless of latency: with the
more recent availability of 4K and higher
streaming, that does require a higher minimum
bandwidth to work at all. One could argue that
no one NEEDS 4K streaming, but many families
would view this as an important part of what
they do with their Internet (Starlink makes this
reliably possible at our farmhouse). 4K
HDR-supporting TV's are among the most popular
TVs being purchased in the U.S. today. Netflix,
Amazon, Max, Disney and other streaming services
provide a substantial portion of 4K HDR content.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">So, I agree
that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR
streaming.<br class="">
100/20<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple
concurrent 4K users or a 1-2 8K streams.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">For me, not
claiming any special expertise on market
needs, just <br class="">
my own<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
personal assessment on what typical families
will need and care about:<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Latency:
below 50ms under load always feels good
except for some <br class="">
intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to
getting loaded <br class="">
latency further below ~20ms for typical
applications, with an <br class="">
exception for cloud-based gaming that
benefits with lower latency <br class="">
all the way down to about 5ms for young,
really fast players, the <br class="">
rest of us won't be able to tell the
difference)<br class="">
<br class="">
Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if
not doing UHD video <br class="">
streaming<br class="">
<br class="">
Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing
UHD video streaming, <br class="">
depending on # of streams or if wanting to
be ready for 8k<br class="">
<br class="">
Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for
quality video <br class="">
conferencing, higher only needed for
multiple concurrent outbound <br class="">
streams<br class="">
<br class="">
So, for example (and ignoring upload for
this), I would rather <br class="">
have<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of
25Mbps than latency of 1ms with a max bandwidth
of 10Mbps, because the super-low latency doesn't
solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to
watch 4K HDR content. But, I'd also rather have
latency of 20ms with 100Mbps DL, then latency
that exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL
bandwidth. I think the important thing is to
reach "good enough" on both, not just excel at
one while falling short of "good enough" on the
other.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Note that
Starlink handles all of this well, including
kids <br class="">
watching<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD
Netflix, except the upload speed occasionally
tops at under 3Mbps for me, causing quality
degradation for outbound video calls (or used
to, it seems to have gotten better in recent
months – no problems since sometime in 2023).<br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Cheers,<br
class="">
Colin<br class="">
<br class="">
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