<!DOCTYPE html><html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Oh goodness, I wasn't suggesting that we had a total solution, I
was pointing out that the gaming community was missing the point,
even with evidence in their hands. </p>
<p>That suggests we have not made the point to a technically aware
part of our community.<br>
</p>
<p>--dave<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-05-06 20:43, Eugene Y Chang via
Starlink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:78E8C67D-02F5-44A5-955E-D588FD17E834@ieee.org">
Dave,
<div class="">We just can’t represent that we have the total
solution.</div>
<div class="">We need to show the problem can be reduced.</div>
<div class="">We need to show that latency is a significant
negative phenomena. </div>
<div class="">Take out one contributor and sic the users to the
next contributor.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we expect to solve the whole problem in one step,
we end up where we are and effectively say the problem is too
complex to solve.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div><br class="">
Gene<br class="">
----------------------------------------------<br class="">
Eugene Chang</div>
<div>IEEE Life Senior Member</div>
<div>IEEE Communications Society & Signal
Processing Society, <br class="">
Hawaii Chapter Chair</div>
<div>IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii
Chair</div>
<div>IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor<br class="">
<a href="mailto:eugene.chang@ieee.org" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">eugene.chang@ieee.org</a><br class="">
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 6, 2024, at 2:11 AM, Dave Collier-Brown
via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">I think that gamer experience doing simple
(over-simple) tests with CAKE is a booby-trap. This
discussion suggests that the real performance of their
link is horrid, and that they turn off CAKE to get
what they think is full performance... but isn't.<br class="">
</p>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/174k0ko/low_latency_gaming_and_bufferbloat/#:~:text=If%20there's%20any%20chance%20that,out%20any%20intermittent%20latency%20spikes" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/174k0ko/low_latency_gaming_and_bufferbloat/#:~:text=If%20there's%20any%20chance%20that,out%20any%20intermittent%20latency%20spikes</a>.
<p class=""> (I used to work for World Gaming, and
follow the game commentators more that I do now)</p>
<p class="">--dave<br class="">
</p>
<div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-05-06 07:25, Rich
Brown via Starlink wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E9B5BCFB-395D-42C2-B83D-E5583A555143@gmail.com" class="">
<div class="">Hi Gene,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">I've been vacillating on whether to
send this note, but have decided to pull the
trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie
Downer" nature of this message. I also apologize
for any errors, omissions, or over-simplifications
of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes.
Corrections welcome.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">Rich</div>
<div class="">------</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we are going to take a shot at
opening people's eyes to bufferbloat, we should know
some of the "objections" we'll run up against. Even
though there's terrific technical data to back it
up, people seem especially resistant to thinking
that bufferbloat might affect their network, even
when they're seeing problems that sound exactly like
bufferbloat symptoms. But first, some history:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable.
Jim Gettys in 2011 [1] couldn't believe it, and he's
a smart networking guy,. At the time, it seemed
incredible (that is "not credible" == impossible)
that something could induce 1.2 seconds of latency
into his home network connection. He called in
favors from technical contacts at his ISP and at
Bell Labs who went over everything with a
fine-toothed comb. It was all exactly as spec'd. But
he still had the latency. <br class="">
<br class="">
This led Jim and Dave Täht to start the
investigation into the phenomenon known today as
"bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that comes
from a router or other network equipment buffering
too much data. Over several years, a group of smart
people made huge improvements: fq_codel was released
14 May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated into the Linux
kernel shortly afterward. CAKE came in 2015, and the
fixes that minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrived in
2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived to
handle varying speed ISP links. All these techniques
work great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was quite
usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel on my
OpenWrt router allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL
line for two simultaneous zoom calls. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As one of the authors of [2], I am part
of the team that has tried over the years to explain
bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've spoken with
vendors. We've spent untold hours responding to
posts on assorted boards and forums with the the
bufferbloat story. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">With these technical fixes in hand, we
cockily set about to tell the world about how to fix
bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met with
skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the
objections? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- This is just the ordinary behavior: I
would expect things to be slower when there's more
traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of magnitude
increase in delay.)</div>
<div class="">- Besides, I'm the only one using the
internet. (Except when my phone uploads photos. Or
my computer kicks off some automated process. Or I
browse the web. Or ...)</div>
<div class="">- It only happens some of the time.
(Exactly. That's probably when something's uploading
photos, or your computer is doing stuff in the
background.)</div>
<div class="">- Those bufferbloat tests you hear about
are bogus. They artificially add load, which isn't a
realistic test. (...and if you actually are
downloading a file?)</div>
<div class="">- Bufferbloat only happens when the
network is 100% loaded. (True. But when you open a
web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the
link. Is this enough to cause momentary lag?)</div>
<div class="">- It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse
not to use the internet when I'm gaming. (Huh?)</div>
<div class="">- I have gigabit service from my ISP.
(That helps, but if you're complaining about
"slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat in
your router.)</div>
<div class="">- I can't believe that router
manufacturers would ever allow such a thing to
happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story
above.)</div>
<div class="">- I mean... wouldn't router vendors want
to provide the best for their customers? (No -
implementing this (new-ish) code requires
engineering effort. They're selling plenty of
routers with decade-old software. The Boss says,
"would we sell more if they made these changes?
Probably not.")</div>
<div class="">- Why would my ISP provision/sell me a
router that gave crappy service? They're a big
company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe. We
have reached out to all the vendors. But remember
they profit if you decide your network is too slow
and you upgrade to a faster device/plan.)</div>
<div class="">- But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on
my router? (Maybe. But see [5])</div>
<div class="">- Besides, I just spent $300 on a
"gaming router". Obviously, I bought the most
expensive/best possible solution on the market (But
I still have lag...)</div>
<div class="">- You're telling me that a bunch of
pointy-headed academics are smarter than commercial
router developers - who sold me that $300 router? (I
can't believe it.)</div>
<div class="">- And then you say that I should throw
away that gaming router and install some "open
source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why
should I believe you?) </div>
<div class="">- What if it doesn't solve the problem?
Who will give me support? And how will I get back to
a vendor-supported system? (Valid point - the first
valid point)</div>
<div class="">- Aren't there any commercial solutions
I can just buy? (Not at the moment. IQrouter was a
shining light here - available from Amazon, simple
setup, worked a treat - but they have gone out of
business. And of course, for the skeptic, this is
proof that the "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a
solution - it seems just like snake oil.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So... All these hurdles make it hard to
convince people that bufferbloat could be the
problem, or that they can fix for themselves.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">A couple of us have reached out to
Consumer Reports, wondering if they would like a
story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a
new, faster router (or new faster ISP plan) than fix
your bufferbloat. This kind of story seemed to be
straight up their alley, but we never heard back
after an initial contact. Maybe they deserve another
call...</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The recent latency results from Starlink
give me a modicum of hope. They're a major player.
They (and their customers) can point to an order of
magnitude reduction in latency over other solutions.
It still requires enough "regular customers" to tell
their current ISP that they are switching to
Starlink (and spend $600 to purchase a Dishy plus
$100/month) to provide a market incentive.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Despite all this doom and gloom, I
remain hopeful that things will get better. We know
the technology exists for people to take control of
their network and solve the problem for themselves.
We can continue to respond on forums where people
express their dismay at the crummy performance and
suggest a solution. We can hope that a major vendor
will twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market
solution.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think your suggestion of speaking to
eSports people is intriguing. They're highly
motivated to make their personal networks better.
And actually solving the problem would have a
network effect of bringing in others with the same
problem. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Good luck, and thanks for thinking about
this.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Rich Brown</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">[1] <a href="https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloat.pdf" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloat.pdf</a></div>
[2] <a href="https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/</a><br class="">
<div class="">[3] <a href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html</a></div>
<div class="">[4] <a href="https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate</a></div>
<div class="">[5] <a href="https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/#what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/#what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene
Y Chang via Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
Of course. For the gamers, the focus is
managing latency. They have control of
everything else.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">With our high latency and wide
range of values, the eSports teams train
on campus. It will be interesting to see
how much improvements there can be for
teams to be able to training from their
homes.<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
Gene<br class="">
----------------------------------------------<br class="">
Eugene Chang</div>
<div class="">IEEE Life
Senior Member</div>
<div class="">IEEE
Communications Society
& Signal
Processing Society,
<br class="">
Hawaii Chapter
Chair</div>
<div class="">IEEE Life
Member Affinity Group
Hawaii Chair</div>
<div class="">IEEE
Entrepreneurship,
Mentor<br class="">
<a href="mailto:eugene.chang@ieee.org" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">eugene.chang@ieee.org</a><br class="">
m 781-799-0233 (in
Honolulu)<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com" moz-do-not-send="true">dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com</a> | -- Mark Twain</pre>
<br class="">
<p class=""><strong class=""><em class=""><span style="color: #212121;" class="">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER</span></em></strong><em class=""><span style="color: #212121;" class=""> :
This telecommunication, including any and all
attachments, contains confidential information
intended only for the person(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any dissemination, distribution,
copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and
is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have
received this telecommunication in error, please
notify the sender immediately by return electronic
mail and delete the message from your inbox and
deleted items folders. This telecommunication does
not constitute an express or implied agreement to
conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does
it constitute a contract offer, a contract
amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer.
Contract terms contained in this telecommunication
are subject to legal review and the completion of
formal documentation and are not binding until
same is confirmed in writing and has been signed
by an authorized signatory.</span></em></p>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Starlink mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net">Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink">https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com">dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com</a> | -- Mark Twain</pre>
</body>
</html>