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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/06/2024 à 22:58, Eugene Y Chang
via Starlink a écrit :<br>
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cite="mid:1078E544-F61B-4289-BCA1-BCDD9FA77481@ieee.org">
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<div class="">For automobiles, the sensation of speed comes from
engine noise and the G-force at the seat-of-your-pants.</div>
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<div class="">I think of it as mostly the second derivative of the
motion (aka acceleration).</div>
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<div class="">For snappiness of a network action, it is the time
interval from activation to completion. This perception can be
enhanced by giving quick feedback (response) while many things
are still in motion (still incomplete).</div>
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<div class="">We do need to agree on what makes a network snappy
and how that is measured.</div>
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<p>I think a part of qualifying a communications network as 'snappy'
is to hold a 1-to-1 long-range audio conversation that acts as
much as possible as an in-person conversation to a person nearby.
Landline phones still excel at that and should be the benchmark.</p>
<p>A 'tele-presence' over satcom linking several persons each
speaking in high density bursts might need a 1ms RTT latency. <br>
</p>
<p>Alex<br>
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<div>Gene</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Eugene Chang</div>
<div><a href="mailto:eugene.chang@ieee.org"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">eugene.chang@ieee.org</a></div>
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<div class="">On Jun 4, 2024, at 10:06 AM, Sauli Kiviranta via
Starlink <<a href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div class="">Good examples Stuart, it is quite
interesting that as humanity we have not come up
with aggregate term what would fairly collapse the
dimensions to one single metric that would
describe the snappy feeling we intuitively seek
for but can not quite verbalize. Vehicles have the
same issues, we have top speed (F1 at 360mph feels
fast compared to Starship at 16000mph), we have
acceleration (Hot-rod going 0 to 60 mph in 5
seconds feels high but pales in comparison to
Tesla going 0 to 60 mph in 2 sec), we have horse
powers (tractor plowing field with 300hp feels
great but seems small compared to 1000hp of
Hot-rod) then also there is torque (tractor with
1450 Nm of torque wins a Tesla having 900Nm on
wheel while at completely different torque curve).</div>
<br class="">
</div>
Capacity has the same issue as literally the truck
from your example shipping magnetic tapes for "raw
carry capacity" but it does not feel responsive,
snappy, good to handle in the "traffic" of Internet.
We have jitter, that could be compared to how a
vehicle does in repeatability of track laps? We have
packet loss on how the car handles on curves and does
it slip off the track or on accelerations spin the
wheels? Download is speed forward, upload is almost
like speed at reverse gear usually far worse. Latency
is like a lap track as such, depends on the track,
use-case specific tests "What time did it do
on Nürburgring?" or "How fast does it go from 0 to
60Mbps? Less than 200ms?". Horse power feels much like
raw capacity of the HW / radio channel and techniques
available beam forming, frequencies etc. what was
discussed here related to Starlink and even
collectively across different technologies. Speed is
then instead of how much specific combination of modem
and base-station combo can achieve at certain
configuration? Torque feels like ability to maintain
that performance, closest we get is loaded performance
in context of bufferbloat? <br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Watching videos on Netflix require
different performance characteristics than downloading
a big update to Fortnite. One has certain acceleration
need to have snappy user experience but focus is more
on connection stability at certain bitrate. On the
other hand Fortnite update you want to be delivered at
brute force speeds without ruining others user
experience.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Maybe we can not find that aggregate
property or metric, but just need to be rigorous on
making sure we accurately characterize each dimension
and standardize them so the confusion and play with
words, specially with marketing, get stabilized. Each
needs to have standardized benchmarks much like 3D
rendering benchmarks and PC perf tests are done? All
that said, as I failed to come up with a perfect term,
"varying performance ISP links" feels like the right
thing to say? Now we have obfuscated to be able to
throw any of the dimensions underneath. Only thing
left for us to do is then to provide those dimensions
like a nutrient labels. We are getting there? Nothing
new under the sun also to some extend.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Just as a funny side note on the tractor
marketing:<br class="">
<br class="">
”Torque gives you the feeling of responsiveness and
that the machine does the right things,” Tapani Katila
encapsulates his view. “The torque is directly linked
to the feeling of having power available in the entire
range of the power curve, resulting in more meaningful
work.” from <a
href="https://www.agcopower.com/power-is-important-but-torque-is-crucial/"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.agcopower.com/power-is-important-but-torque-is-crucial/</a><br
class="">
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<div class="">Seems like some other people are also
trying to figure out what dimensions to showcase to
customers?<br class="">
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</div>
Thank you for the thought provoking examples!<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is bufferbloat property of a vehicle or
characteristic of the road design? Is it a question of
ICE vs EV -or- roundabout vs crossing with traffic
lights? Feels more like a roundabout, no? Is this the
problem behind the objections?<br class="">
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<div class=""><br class="">
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- Sauli<br class="">
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<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at
9:19 PM Stuart Cheshire via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
May 7, 2024, at 18:48, Dave Taht via Starlink <<a
href="mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
> This was a wonderful post, rich!<br class="">
<br class="">
<<a
href="https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-problem/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-problem/</a>><br
class="">
<br class="">
I agree. Thanks for writing this Rich.<br class="">
<br class="">
One minor change I will request. Any time you write
words like “speed” or “fast”, pause and consider whether
it would be more accurate to use some other term like
“capacity”, “bandwidth”, or “throughput”. Part of what
keeps us in this mess is that people equate network
capacity with “speed”, as if those terms were synonyms.
We can’t change how people think overnight, but at least
we can avoid further reinforcing that wrong thinking.<br
class="">
<br class="">
If someone has 200 Mb/s Internet service and it feels
slow, then they might upgrade to 400 Mb/s Internet
service and expect everything to be uniformly twice as
fast. We here know that doubling the network capacity
may make large downloads faster, but everything else is
most likely unchanged, and can be even worse.<br
class="">
<br class="">
People never make this mistake in other contexts. If
someone commutes to work in their 20-foot RV feels that
it’s too slow, then upgrading to a 40-foot RV will not
get them to work faster. A 40-foot RV is *bigger* than a
20-foot RV, but it’s probably not *faster*. If you are
moving a vast amount of cargo that requires multiple
trips, then a larger truck will let you complete that
task in fewer trips. But for most daily driving, a
bigger truck will not get to your destination any
quicker.<br class="">
<br class="">
Some simple edits:<br class="">
<br class="">
Instead of “varying speed ISP links” how about “varying
capacity ISP links”?<br class="">
<br class="">
Instead of “they profit if you decide your network is
too slow and you upgrade to a faster device/plan” how
about “they profit if you decide your network is too
slow and you upgrade to a higher throughput
device/plan”?<br class="">
<br class="">
Stuart Cheshire<br class="">
<br class="">
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