From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 178D13CB41; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-69-181-111-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [69.181.111.171]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C1A61B326; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:50:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 1C1A61B326 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1679791831; bh=NELwcT1OGjdouaer8xoMa7WGchbvq7RPyfMjqpUNjjM=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:CC:From; b=HFwtAFTwujEYAgMU8vDxeV3R406AsdCVQKsa2d/AttRy5TVEmOzXaEVtmgYdqoEDG qnniZXqicAaPOPaYtP0/1+zEqbnRu9cnediI2Ywut7HOXlBr4z+F029dpbbWqeLSea o5Zzh/+Gst9Nvqk+1HcTnT/netmf2lEFUhbcA5CQ= In-Reply-To: References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <0551d5fe-e1be-48c8-be36-c4800a12e5de@rjmcmahon.com> <8f7d92bd-3b35-4726-b733-978b322713ad@rjmcmahon.com> X-Referenced-Uid: 0001012e567702d5 Thread-Topic: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true X-Blue-Identity: !l=1075&o=43&fo=2848&pl=1025&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&m=!%3AODY4NDIxODAtZDYzYS00ZmFiLTk1N2EtZjE0NWVlYzg4ZGQ1%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMDAwMTAxMmU1Njc3MDJkNQ%3D%3D%3AANSWERED&p=31&q=SHOW User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----OJY8MK5AH2YQ28JRCE2MFXDHX8M63L" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert McMahon Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:50:25 -0700 To: Nathan Owens CC: David Lang , Dave Taht via Starlink , dan ,Frantisek Borsik , Bruce Perens ,libreqos , Rpm ,bloat Message-ID: <00c38224-c2bb-4d6f-91e0-94fe05033a57@rjmcmahon.com> Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 00:50:32 -0000 ------OJY8MK5AH2YQ28JRCE2MFXDHX8M63L Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Our building is 100 meters from multiple fallow strands=2E I've got the kmz= map from the dark fiber guys=2E The juniper switch was designed in 2012 a= nd used old mfg processes, not sure the nanometers but likely 28=2E Newer A= SICS improve power per bit per distance dramatically simply by using curren= t foundries 5nm on the way to 3nm=2E Then on top of that there is a lot of = NRE to further reduce power=2E That's why a 100Gb/s without gear boxes can = run at 1W for all parts, serdes, laser etc and at distance=2E Not 5kW like = a tower=2E 2g to 6g really adds nothing=2E=C2=A0 My point was to see how f= lexible they were in optics per a customer ask=2E I suspect both use 10g an= d rate limiting=2E 10G optic parts are a decade old now=2E No improvements = coming in 10G=2E Kinda like buying one of the last incandescent bulbs=2E Be= st to go led if possible=2E FiWi connected via 100Gb/s is the answer for t= he next ten years=2E The last mile providers will figure it out if given qu= ality information and if they ask the right questions and demand the optima= l metrics be used=2E They may have fallen victims to their own marketing=2E= Hard to know from the outside=2E Bob On Mar 25, 2023, 5:07 PM, at 5:07 = PM, Nathan Owens wrote: >Comcast's 6Gbps service is a = niche product with probably <1000 >customers=2E >It requires knowledge and = persistence from the customer to actually get >it >installed, a process tha= t can take many months (It's basically MetroE)=2E >It >requires you to be w= ithin 1760ft of available fiber, with some limit on >install cost if trench= ing is required=2E In some cases, you may be able >to >trench yourself, or = cover some of the costs (usually thousands to tens >of >thousands)=2E > >On= Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Bloat < >bloat@lis= ts=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: > >> The primary cost is the optics=2E That'= s why they're p in sfp and pay >go >> >> Bob >> On Mar 25, 2023, at 4:35 PM= , David Lang wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert M= cMahon via Bloat wrote: >>> >>> The fiber has basically infinite capacity= =2E >>>> >>> >>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to= pay for >equipment >>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty'= starts to run >out really >>> fast=2E >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> ---------= --------------------- >>> >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists=2Ebufferbl= oat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/bloat >>> >>> ____= ___________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@= lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/blo= at >> ------OJY8MK5AH2YQ28JRCE2MFXDHX8M63L Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Our building= is 100 meters from multiple fallow strands=2E I've got the kmz map from th= e dark fiber guys=2E

The juniper switch was= designed in 2012 and used old mfg processes, not sure the nanometers but l= ikely 28=2E Newer ASICS improve power per bit per distance dramatically sim= ply by using current foundries 5nm on the way to 3nm=2E Then on top of that= there is a lot of NRE to further reduce power=2E That's why a 100Gb/s with= out gear boxes can run at 1W for all parts, serdes, laser etc and at distan= ce=2E Not 5kW like a tower=2E

2g to 6g real= ly adds nothing=2E=C2=A0 My point was to see how flexible they were in opti= cs per a customer ask=2E I suspect both use 10g and rate limiting=2E 10G op= tic parts are a decade old now=2E No improvements coming in 10G=2E Kinda li= ke buying one of the last incandescent bulbs=2E Best to go led if possible= =2E

FiWi connected via 100Gb/s is the answe= r for the next ten years=2E The last mile providers will figure it out if g= iven quality information and if they ask the right questions and demand the= optimal metrics be used=2E They may have fallen victims to their own marke= ting=2E Hard to know from the outside=2E

B= ob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Nathan Ow= ens <nathan@nath= an=2Eio> wrote:
Comcast's 6Gbps service is a niche product with = probably <1000 customers=2E It requires knowledge and persistence from t= he customer to actually get it installed, a process that can take many mont= hs (It's basically MetroE)=2E It requires you to be within 1760ft of availa= ble fiber, with some limit on install cost if trenching is required=2E In s= ome cases, you may be able to trench yourself, or cover some of the costs (= usually thousands to tens of thousands)=2E

On Sat, Mar 25, 20= 23 at 5:04=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Bloat < bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote= :
The primary cost is the optics=2E That's why = they're p in sfp and pay go

Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, = at 4:35 PM, David Lang < david@lang=2Ehm> wrote: 
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via=
 Bloat wrote:


      

        The fiber has basically infinite capacity=2E
       

    =
  

in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having =
to pay for equipment 
that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty=
' starts to run out really 
fast=2E

David Lang
  =
    

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