From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D793B2A4; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 16:08:14 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1666814892; bh=zptAzccs8vpHY19pTN3R5L7kQye5HUZKHtW0+tuWcyI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=iRG1dFPo1rmqgxLvnlkQAvGz9XK+hSHznHHL0tbtsqdBXWbwXN0HeFPkggCHpXyN+ +forJQWc7GynbOD6VYi5nJ4EtZYo0Nuxnk6v+Y5u5YvRzExsJCB+5KTL1cx1UilxcA gdbKL3sf2nQ5q1mXNxPdLf1U9p5EIf2+NYdaIwivRKcxK7fqbAfVd+uO/sfcXF/OlW pQaHZcez0AF/fTvesZ17j2fJP6dFh9c7ddV71uGR9Rr4CQx07/T9h/6/1E2cGSxRVZ JqxIkwThpAweMUymIVuBXYA9LQ5hudwoIygE73Gr6n9bKp7UFyjKvaEy7o6nB9ikHv ubdqAQE1HMWgw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([84.157.42.192]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MC30Z-1ovFrt2wHt-00CPDd; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 22:08:12 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 22:08:11 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Rpm , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2087F2C8-1D9D-4093-90FF-65E68D0E1154@gmx.de> References: <2C3CDDC5-DEE6-4F96-8B2F-60FF093EE412@gmx.de> To: dan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0k+w95elvdyxbciptgQqnXlnLUdZ3/VIyUH/1jqjYxncZkI9ayB +Da9Wb3esS/VI3LqFDw+L9e1rgbe2iJi+l9bF0KExLuUF4mG1Trq25KCrbGG3BlFPG+BvuC cN16PBPrd7mdnQQTfxNE4RhTNMqX+fCCF73YjLHgJADiy3oDONPMVSTgjizQYbluKxeQLRB cKurnNqI/PSDxMjUyYUMA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:n9mRHBuJHR4=;t2DVvuDT5WWL8jdPO9KDhptIKKf PHrPesfcpdKiCvWdxSFJ6pzMjpSWSBTkCQSpgOzYe/73p5teI8v7I7Q01D9iMzlMsgpNg3/Mz 9V+fCptT+qdyYxEfhhUXKplYmBs39AKzyIMeQ3CNq4Nhjg63W8ijX2AzfZz0nxyXDc8oFGqBG XsuGIo8LlrV5B/V+BPs6foofm+NizmZPQY6df3Dd08aCMC6ctib8lqqMwqfd5WRVeyqD/p6zc 8j/2UDkYCcE/1w4E1zXZva1bXrdTjs4Iau8jSdiUN+xmPtiYH0jwtmQiTVRvzQyLiui6lokhR Bc94/zjTlMVZDG8Z1Tjjn0ByDfuC2ASsTPCdYHZaVQTOyHhC9aQ4dtkWcc9TR597k8evzpfYN RFllODYjLd8RlhbkXPr6LVsZOSbFlGUgkmrPJ9MmRrMQH4ElMd1m99sSWzI5eKxlr+syOp259 X4Cz1U2wwupLdNZIogK/0qPWyhSkdVOIuVO6rSykNU1SdRvz/+4PNHJW7QXrTlpkzTepjwFRD dwFoVH9srcXcd0TCBHbKj5UvnWp4eHp0qEveES/ivrBvR1V/ul1FbRqaHRMOzujU70S5aPsQv Cd236lUUNyMiyQU93eIdgYOCfw36uWOpPyKX4JZtpTqilMV0D+bebrqNTuzRrTfWq8yc1QUNp TtV9qiwIJ9kmoUDuWysXf9iWC7a2cgCF0U0DWbK/2e1LqW+D8P8sjh6uYJGN0DxIkIqP5wu4g M9VsUfUTCGpCoUDyvk+Tc6XXZvH+pbe/U7gZNWIdHWyUoMJrXteIfrVM5Yx6oFvOXRne4dpUt aUJLWlrU1Agv9VMbK0L9u20BPDgiQqEYvNaynh0o55dK5GSNzatIpdVtaVjHQA9JOloSm0DMy 3tiGCRIhtrzuNUm4kE3J5xeu2W6TsJw1VeW0tgATKg0TNPhm/ZHfg9BdPu3t4Iae4t3+TmxEN xyA1FWdTbz+y4KiH3Mn3IsI9lrA= Subject: Re: [Rpm] [LibreQoS] benton's consumer broadband label prototype X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 20:08:15 -0000 Hi Dan, > On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:42, dan wrote: >=20 > My argument here is more about government inadequacies. [SM] Sure regulatory capture is a reality and we can/should = always strive for better government, but existing government is IMHO = better than no government ;) (not a fan of anarchy) > Without government warning labels for internet service we have a = massive streaming industry, gaming industry, home office workers, and so = on. [SM] That is somewhat orthogonal, as we also have a massive = organized crime "industry" in spite of government warning/acting against = it ;) > It's imperfect, but the fact that many of us complain about how kids = are stuck in front of an xbox playing fortnite... well I guess it's = working to some degree. =20 [SM] Not saying that all internet service is bad, just that = enough of it is sub-promise that I personally consider regulatory action = desirable. We can discuss how that action should look like. (I also want = to add, that e.g. in Germany many ISPs already delivered on their = promises even before the changes in law). > Government's ability to regulate and protect consumers that already = exists just isn't utilized, ie if you say you sell X, you give X else = void contract and potential refunds of up-front costs. =20 [SM] Hence me bringing the example from the German regulatory = agency that (acting based on a change in the relevant telecommunication = law) does exactly that, make sure both parties know what an internet = access link contract entails. > In the US at least, the government's decision making process has fed = the 'bad' companies 3000-4000 per subscriber to build out services that = don't address the underserved anyway. All of this money thrown out = there by the government making their decisions and they've not moved the = needle at all. [SM] There is some inefficiency in the system of how to getting = those links built/updated to broadband where a pure profit motive with = the established prices will not work by itself. However it needs = "free-market" players to abuse the government's willingness to pay for = such build-outs (and gorvernments willingness to not look close enugh to = the details of the implementation). > IMO, very simple rules on advertising based on delivering what is = claimed will force industry innovation. [SM] What kind of innovation do you envision here? After all = "basic internet access" is a commodity, or should be, no? > If a company says 'fast' and that term is too broad, then any attack = on 'my latency is crap so this isn't fast' could lead to refunds. This = is capitalism after all. =20 [SM] In the UK ISPs are, as far as I know, only allowed to = advertise with rates that are somehow empirically evidenced. In Germany = they can advertize with the PIB's "maximal rate", but then are held = accountable to actually deliver something close to that rate (the rules = how the regulator controls whether ISPs hold their contracts are, in = good German fashion, somewhat baroque and convoluted/complicated, I am = sure once the US commits to its own system it will be likely = better/simpler to use). > Maybe companies should have to say 'best throughput' if they are = trying to hyper their 1G or 2G service, they can't say 'fast' because = that's not really a valid measure. 'great low latency services' instead = of fast. =20 [SM] All of these terms like "fast" have no bearing over here, = ISPs need to reveal actual rates and then need to deliver these (again = there are rules how to interpret the availability of these rates end = users can expect). Over here ISPs advertize typically with their maximal = download rate. > We have the language to market properly but companies are allowed to = market vaguely and it IMO contributes to consumer ignorance and = misunderstanding. >=20 > For our 'fiber like' services we literally pitch latencies to various = gaming services and zoom relays.=20 [SM] Which IMHO is fine, assuming you actually deliver robust = and reliable low latencies as far as that is under your control. = Actually if you deliver that, it well above just fine ;). Bit of a sign = of competence for any network operator not to blow up latency under load = beyond reason. Regards Sebastian > =20 >=20 > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 9:27 AM Sebastian Moeller = wrote: > Hi Dan, >=20 >=20 > > On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:09, dan via Rpm = wrote: > >=20 > > Complete fail on a marketing perspective though, this would have to = be legislated and then handled by a third party. >=20 > [SM] Well this is not intended to be a marketing tool, but a = regulatory tool to make sure the market works to the benefit of society = (I understand that market members are incentivized to skew the market = mechanism to their advantage, this is why working markets need equally = working regulation, just like competitive sports require = umpires/referees). So yes legislation might well be required, but that = would not be a sign of failure, no? >=20 > > No one is going to put out essentially a warning label that says = 'poor' or 'marginal' in any category for a product they sell. I = wouldn't, and we have LTE services to get to people with no other option = and they are quite happy, it would be detrimental to hand them a sheet = that says that the service is actually 'poor'. >=20 > [SM] True, but e.g. in Germany ISPs are required by law to = publish their contracted rates in a pre-described fashion pre-sale and = are actually held responsible to some degree to actually deliver the = promised rates. (Well, not really, but consumers can get a cost-free = right to immediately cancel their contract or reduce their payments = commensurate to the under-delivery of the contracted speed*). What = happens here is not that ISPs need to disclose shitty service but that = the need to declare what they intend to deliver and they are simply held = responsible to actually do so**. >=20 >=20 > *) The first option is already well established and works, the payment = reduction part is ATM still being worked out. > **) Unfortunately, the required numbers currently do not include = latency under load or even idle latency... there is still work ahead to = convince the regulatory agency of that. >=20 > > Also, my trust in the government to decide what's good or bad... = laughable. >=20 > [SM] Compared to bigger cooperations operating in = "free-market" capitalism? Really there is no alternative to government = for that purpose... >=20 > > You'd get things like on the example page. 903.5Mbps Median = download speed, 811.8 Median upload speed, gaming rating poor and video = conferencing marginal, on Fios service. I know that's an example, but = it's so spot on what the government might do... >=20 > [SM] See e.g.: > = https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D08= 68AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 > and > = https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868= AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 >=20 > for how something similar might look in practice. >=20 > >=20 > > As an operator, I will not implement this unless forced to and then = I'll support lobby efforts to get it removed. >=20 > [SM] Ad that is why we can't have nice things... ;) No really, = I agree this needs legislative/regulatory backing/teeth to work, but = that is not a failure but simply how our system developed. >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:30 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS = wrote: > > is actually... not bad. > >=20 > > https://www.benton.org/blog/consumer-driven-broadband-label-design > >=20 > > --=20 > > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > _______________________________________________ > > Rpm mailing list > > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >=20