From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 267EA3CB35 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:41:42 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1648392100; bh=PpbgEE6nsMRR8CSUBMklXEl+BgMj325Sn6owlOZ4mbQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Ja3UxrKum6R/yy3OgW1bDfaTEEnmd83tEyrh8IBUCd39WZ/gRl8OlTAWEzPaA5ljp o4abNhvXvWhaSjOuLI/dbD+PgzE+RX9m6MSZBD4ZumxGmeiiLS/qZVE6GuVssz47uo mrVlsFVOlPMjOaSwiUiyuUbjf+l3jwDVe2TTM9jw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.112.252.67]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M72sP-1ngzbn1gAJ-008ZMT; Sun, 27 Mar 2022 16:41:40 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 16:41:39 +0200 Cc: Rpm Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <285BE48F-7C91-467E-B2CC-D0CAA575D529@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HATA+VEcE57aC3jVAwP3BugWyZ/pZQ7QxXzvOupxn2ZIJ2EyEja 4XuKjwnYfsFdnlFa9SQTGmhkiwi3CGyvowo08WkxFnqgMpKLlSFCs72xa1Qb087DImLg5ki p/FjsB/MKxOMaquUyuox/pMn2r+0TbCkPju6qw65TmbJomOTrLT4/NH/7ch/n3iA8HkCQ4f 4/vza+YtYus26FOgBbnGA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:nCWJ6ovAhtI=:sbUmONbGH0UopuMd+LMkCs qQEJb9GnCVG2OjRgJJqlznrWrDG1g2qYbbg6kKQnU9bXrR4zLp1C/LABtHGHgeDEuxcqGcXVe fTDtJW9Gp/yRqByMJw01spDUHt1qmxz/ObOrzL0lqdtrju6BsrCePCPRTBFGkIRY7m2tdXNy0 RFItP4/lHgyITfowjEPZJ3PTvyBN20t8/NMiuKYVzZGCz92gPDmH8z+f0Jhf2XECLHEoOYYNi ecw085mCyDMfeM5nvKNBWV+vzHrpc3IuqG3tdYxLGarxrBH6n12LnZL7K1m7ILBx+ZeanqfNH XYR4y3jLdOgYlyY5UpGyHTvOCdJl9rURT4akXe9A63VelKYA1cmzhUEH0+72YEomINL7Pgkv2 youTKXa598/L3tmmau/YVaWorgt+0jY23HiY6nVT8FuixEU7JQCNciDaOxAr4XaZL8nanpXVL pf8x/rjlRFRQ8J+SmvwUcQn69s2Lc2WxXdO6/iWXui2fUMTdPC6JN21W9+02+iAyV/V5WesKn VrFzqJuTCBll9iyLzgpBs6rOv0BMNskKU5u2UQtbRJkem2IUegdB29o6qiwvTQvCnK5KjuR6R VZbM9XqyC6UQkPdARQNiQmJxZqzhgvPSF36OS8UpeGM6woUKIf0iAh3jSw8FDy4f4dG+9GqIy pI9OZqa83pH6PyRYSqcCzsEN/YAifTUTWgZBqGwINUw/9qOWiIRtZ41xYzdr6Yf5ZoFPf0LL/ ipWSAfp4BkMPs8l7nAfKQMy9CgcguW/vB8Ec3JLoLy3kT2i+YZvPa8xkEvUkzMMMTMeP8UwRq 8Ai7fxL6vh4hchMED0aNNklxjUKQaYYkCTppYIjGKKg8mgJHLDnuVmDVucK+oP5inXKGHR/gB JSr278tLVLlF1Kx2NLwIngI4pDe4xsqKeTDrBqc2rLNWVt5NZvoHpA3uqU/zMZpCs2FigQRws LeAXf6A42k062PXo2iTm8ykAOPg6vKQXEO8BOeaTTuovl7k/wGVG5F6Cb8mTG6Ljm1eKudHMi 42xZebWuvBsgjDwRYs1aucFBzFN2witnCLuCiB9YN2PJF/0bl6ZCPgusM/BQXctG3pswLCcBE JihazvJwioexJw= Subject: Re: [Rpm] rpm meeting notes from last week X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:41:42 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Mar 27, 2022, at 16:25, Dave Taht via Rpm = wrote: >=20 > Sasha has re-organized the meeting notes we've been taking which will > be permanently up here: >=20 > = https://docs.google.com/document/d/19K14vrBLNvX_KOdRMK_s0SCYTnj70IJ-dQubL3= 7kQgw/edit >=20 > The public meetings continue at 10AM PDT tuesdays. >=20 > One thing came up in that meeting that bears further reflection: The > structure of the the responsiveness test is e2e, and differentiating > between the wifi hop and/or sourcing tests from the router - is hard. > In the latter case, we are asking a router not only to saturate its > network connection, but to do it using crypto, which is a mighty task > to ask of a router that's job is primarily routing (with offloads). >=20 > A thought might be to attempt p2p tests between say, an ios phone and > an osx laptop, which would exercise the router as a wifi router. A > docker container for the server would be straightforward. (It's still > hard for me to > trust containers or vm's to run fast or accurately enough, too). >=20 > Former case is still e2e but with the icmp unreachable idea I = described in wtbb. IIRC a number of devices, especially those that would employ = hardware assists for routing/forwarding will punt ICMP processing to = slow-paths unto their (slowish) CPU, so extracting RTTs from ICMP = responses of such nodes will include an additional source of = variance/delay... that said, IIUC TTL-games is exactly what MTR does and = it mostly seems to work (albeit with the occasional un-interpretable = node). So it might make sense to at least try to RTT probe the whole = path? Regards Sebastian >=20 > --=20 > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm