revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness
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From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
To: Jeremy Austin <jeremy@aterlo.com>
Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>, Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
	rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>,
	bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:50:36 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACw=56+_oDtO1=h1i0oRWTWo2Lr_6axGiqa88H89ZAvNeNFmRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeremy,

> On Mar 13, 2023, at 16:08, Jeremy Austin <jeremy@aterlo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 3:02 AM Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> 
> 
> > On Jan 9, 2023, at 20:56, dan via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >  You don't need to generate the traffic on a link to measure how
> > much traffic a link can handle.
> 
>         [SM] OK, I will bite, how do you measure achievable throughput without actually generating it? Packet-pair techniques are notoriously imprecise and have funny failure modes.
> 
> I am also looking forward to the full answer to this question. While one can infer when a link is saturated by mapping network topology onto latency sampling, it can have on the order of 30% error, given that there are multiple causes of increased latency beyond proximal congestion.

	So in the "autorates" a family of automatic tracking/setting methods for a cake shaper that (in friendly competition to each other) we use active measurements of RTT/OWD increases and there we try to vary our set of reflectors and then take a vote over a set of reflectors to decide "is it cake^W congestion", that helps to weed out a few alternative reasons for congestion detection (like distal congestion to individual reflectors). But that dies not answer the tricky question how to estimate capacity without actually creating a sufficient load (and doubly so on variable rate links).


> A question I commonly ask network engineers or academics is "How can I accurately distinguish a constraint in suppl from a reduction in demand?"

	Good question. The autorates can not, but then they do not need to as they basically work by upping the shaper limit in correlation with the offered load until it detects sufficiently increased delay and reduces the shaper rates. A reduction n demand will lead to a reduction in load and bufferbloat... so the shaper is adapted based on the demand, aka "give the user as much thoughput as can be done within the users configured delay threshold, but not more"...

If we had a reliable method to "measure how much traffic a link can handle." without having to track load and delay that would save us a ton of work ;)

Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> -- 
> --
> Jeremy Austin
> Sr. Product Manager
> Preseem | Aterlo Networks
> preseem.com
> 
> Book a Call: https://app.hubspot.com/meetings/jeremy548
> Phone: 1-833-733-7336 x718
> Email: jeremy@preseem.com
> 
> Stay Connected with Newsletters & More: https://preseem.com/stay-connected/


  reply	other threads:[~2023-03-13 15:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 148+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <mailman.2651.1672779463.1281.starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
     [not found] ` <1672786712.106922180@apps.rackspace.com>
     [not found]   ` <F4CA66DA-516C-438A-8D8A-5F172E5DFA75@cable.comcast.com>
2023-01-09 15:26     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-01-09 17:00       ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 17:04       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " Jeremy Austin
2023-01-09 18:33         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 18:54       ` [Rpm] [EXTERNAL] " Livingood, Jason
2023-01-09 19:19         ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:56           ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-01-09 21:00             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 10:02             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 15:08               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] " Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 15:50                 ` Sebastian Moeller [this message]
2023-03-13 16:06                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:19                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 16:12                   ` [Rpm] " dan
2023-03-13 16:36                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 17:26                       ` dan
2023-03-13 17:37                         ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 18:34                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:14                         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 18:42                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 18:51                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 19:32                               ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-13 20:00                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:28                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14  4:27                                     ` [Rpm] On FiWi rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 11:10                                       ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Mike Puchol
2023-03-14 16:54                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:06                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:11                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-14 17:35                                               ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 17:54                                                 ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-14 18:14                                                   ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-14 19:18                                                     ` dan
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] " Dave Taht
2023-03-14 20:06                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 19:30                                                       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-14 23:30                                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-15  0:11                                                           ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-15  5:20                                                             ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 16:17                                                               ` Aaron Wood
2023-03-15 17:05                                                                 ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-15 17:44                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 19:22                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 17:32                                                               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:42                                                                 ` dan
2023-03-15 19:33                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " David Lang
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                     ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 21:52                                                                       ` David Lang
2023-03-15 22:04                                                                         ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 22:08                                                                           ` dan
2023-03-15 17:43                                                                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-15 17:49                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-15 17:53                                                                     ` Dave Taht
2023-03-15 17:59                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-15 19:39                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 16:38                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Dave Taht
2023-03-17 18:21                                           ` Mike Puchol
2023-03-17 19:01                                           ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-17 19:19                                             ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 20:37                                               ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-17 20:57                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 22:50                                                   ` Bruce Perens
2023-03-18 18:18                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-18 19:57                                                       ` [Rpm] [LibreQoS] " dan
2023-03-18 20:40                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-19 10:26                                                           ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] " Michael Richardson
2023-03-19 21:00                                                             ` [Rpm] On metrics rjmcmahon
2023-03-20  0:26                                                               ` dan
2023-03-20  3:03                                                                 ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-20 20:46                                                             ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 21:28                                                               ` dan
2023-03-20 21:38                                                                 ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-20 22:02                                                                   ` [Rpm] On FiWi power envelope rjmcmahon
2023-03-20 23:47                                                                     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-21  0:10                                                                 ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21  5:21                                                                   ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 11:26                                                                     ` [Rpm] Annoyed at 5/1 Mbps Rich Brown
2023-03-21 12:29                                                                     ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi Brandon Butterworth
2023-03-21 12:30                                                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-21 17:42                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:08                                                                       ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 18:51                                                                         ` Frantisek Borsik
2023-03-21 19:58                                                                           ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-21 20:06                                                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " David Lang
2023-03-25 19:39                                                                             ` [Rpm] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:09                                                                               ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 20:47                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 20:15                                                                               ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-25 20:43                                                                                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-25 21:08                                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Starlink] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 22:04                                                                                     ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:50                                                                                       ` dan
2023-03-25 23:21                                                                                         ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:35                                                                                           ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-26  0:04                                                                                             ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  0:07                                                                                               ` Nathan Owens
2023-03-26  0:50                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-26  8:45                                                                                                 ` Livingood, Jason
2023-03-26 18:54                                                                                                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26  0:28                                                                                               ` David Lang
2023-03-26  0:57                                                                                                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 22:57                                                                                       ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] " Bruce Perens
2023-03-25 23:33                                                                                         ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-25 23:38                                                                                         ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [Bloat] " Robert McMahon
2023-03-25 23:20                                                                                       ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] " David Lang
2023-03-26 18:29                                                                                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 10:34                                                                                   ` [Rpm] [Bloat] " Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-26 18:12                                                                                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-03-26 20:57                                                                                     ` David Lang
2023-03-25 20:27                                                                               ` [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-03-17 23:15                                             ` [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] On FiWi David Lang
2023-03-13 19:33                           ` [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [EXTERNAL] Re: Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA dan
2023-03-13 19:52                             ` Jeremy Austin
2023-03-13 21:00                               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:27                                 ` dan
2023-03-14  9:11                                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 20:45                             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-03-13 21:02                               ` [Rpm] When do you drop? Always! Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:04                 ` [Rpm] UnderBloat on fiber and wisps Dave Taht
2023-03-13 16:09                   ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-09 20:49         ` [Rpm] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA Dave Taht
2023-01-09 19:13       ` [Rpm] " rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 19:47         ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 18:32           ` Rodney W. Grimes
2023-01-11 20:01             ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-11 21:46               ` Dick Roy
2023-01-12  8:22                 ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-12 18:02                   ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-12 21:34                     ` Dick Roy
2023-01-12 20:39                   ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:33                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-13  8:26                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:40                     ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-13  8:10                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-15 23:09                         ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-11 20:09             ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-12  8:14               ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-12 17:49                 ` Robert McMahon
2023-01-12 21:57                   ` Dick Roy
2023-01-13  7:44                     ` Sebastian Moeller
2023-01-13  8:01                       ` Dick Roy
2023-01-09 20:20         ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 20:46           ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 20:59             ` Dave Taht
2023-01-09 21:06               ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:18                 ` rjmcmahon
2023-01-09 21:02             ` Dick Roy
2023-01-10 17:36         ` David P. Reed

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