From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DC913CB52; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 08:30:51 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1679401849; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=7WxHuCVZHS5kcowSTXoXwu6+BUnVkCrbtt4a5stbxzI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=IMNcahEmkUq136qgg1po245CrJ+LmxrjmMTRx8TkHf8ah87gl/ihUFUafy1cJBKlq i57zKcEQGqa8w+Oip+nhoA/FOW2YGt6MhLWWUzarFyhZiKoF+cqoBbX/mlZLKzzRjN tPAuDlTEV5K+sluDgflPl3a5bbCr4uy+Krbp9nGLigpWlSwl6Khec3M2Q4sTFmF1Ln oweagNNyHKnBCNWm/Jfws3swT+ZOrRzjzLEr97L7lS4iAHPVfR4lZqJsZ1mZCsU5aD DmCfjoU44yZDSJnpfMlKo98DUa0jPJE1QBi2uu0bNss/2IYtFvPFhFg0bBBnKMMajO RxYw2ZtVuCkrw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MXGvG-1q06mk3VPC-00YiA3; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:30:48 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:30:48 +0100 Cc: dan , Rpm , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <005d1e7e3e1d19bce308436e46a3ec5e@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> To: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uhAUTwPB0JMrPUJWg8FdYthdUAx+bsS5c7lcuNP0hEfc6uJjp0Y VYLol52U3uK/n1refFWNd8mC9ZBuZKo4QanC07vFDDOOyle7OvtiZiz/K+pmSDUYldt+DRN oE3BXfQz6Bd7Dg2pIh+9yAzSTn4C8Ol7RtR7ZWqrcOuUtfK6KSvfukTYdMiomTZNxc/ik51 51Uut/dyTV7ispE7d0EsQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:XZQmNZguGQo=;tFZQ1rl7Y6NerZ2D23NV/d/KEC4 JHmNxjpGo7+f4hvDOwpS1ujysKu15eMD95rDXWGAoc6XtWI9EaWbAeSnKaE0buaE99q3yGnI9 L5GveGEl/F2MFjr4dpYrtMshXjaURQsXhZ9XyuMS/Pfw065EjF0ZBGALgCyTB1uBlkBobOzHR /gFuDkryo+ujn8F+Xrs5EqbYVtRbWd55gmtRSMF2HHWBc+C9lq9pkO0lWu6MIG4VCiW0sqADJ DBTdpyEtvt6OEesxzy4PkIQXmQK4084RGYyjSyTP8VamMGI9o969oA99U4eZ8oQ/zyZtjB691 M0QdB4YahYeXg3caLD6OhO7EsUfcINHmwJtjonZtM8lJrNsLZNf0NP4+ZFn4Z9OplFzIt1+i2 tmzk3/Hd/OV0GqlH+ngOafMUPfdIdSkcZoX+EsYvNTv/vjBh6SgyZSkuatXEh93PFIcQKb3Vg ExLcRXt18adBZemcribGWcpBZZHlOiJ4MjtRo5M9iUEdmINAJ3/3pM+E5PR2SKRHMMJzpLxrM FhymFMFyJnixmSRia6C5A5sjTPi3eOsEUiLdqOImx6JVwdC0R6jZxz8yT6BjAoy80Mpx6GN4l 1fLCMgbxafItOdbagqRH0HniZQCvEo4QN4tTHsUprYmDOVzxc7NVpI9YPzKsZUcIVJ02Nt/eN 055Nl0EUKC0N6MXOJnwGcTbLvj3hKPJSEHSuVOqnIbPFPg1nJE8RjhxeqL8h3TcDBLn4zhTkw GWv1A2yAvy83kZ7FbmclJts1VA0FyMk56ZzV74xj3O8XrNTsy9vEAa+TdWMCLWMGuZp3Vat6O OxrYbMQEiGQhM2WvyCMAYtOmvLoM6JA3Y2ijqiZKdythPWb+Ap5xnS9ohDVVD/xiXJVSPDtUF nzTidCk1JPIcRVCrU6xF/PdHgyxmQWr97GRmS9dAPvpI9mi69CPLq2A96DqW8KdKxy07qPOrB hcmwZnN+8G8TBLatZNPC1ubheLs= Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:30:51 -0000 Hi Brandon, > On Mar 21, 2023, at 01:10, Brandon Butterworth via Rpm = wrote: >=20 > On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote: >> I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput = numbers >> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are = often >> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K >> streams plus browsing and so forth >=20 > It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be = before > the next upgrade round. I agree these are rates that can work pretty well (assuming the = upload is wide enough). This is also orthogonal to the point that both = copper access networks, have already or a close to reaching their = reasonable end of life, so replacing copper with fiber seems a good idea = to future proof the access network. But once you do that you realize = that actual traffic (at least for big ISPs that do not need to buy much = transit and get cost neural peerings) is not that costly, so offering a = 1 Gbps plan instead of a 100 Mbps is a no brainer, the customer is = unlikely to actually source/sink that much more traffic and you might = get a few pound/EUR/$ more out of essentially the same load. >=20 > This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK. I think this also holds for the EU. >=20 > It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big > number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets > with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. =46rom my = personal > point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making > equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold. One additional reason for the "push for the gigabit" is political in = nature. The national level of fiber deployment is taken as sort of = digital trump game in which different countries want to look good, = taking available capacity (and more so the giga-prefix) as proxy for = digitalization and modernity. So if there are politic "mandates/desires" = to have a high average capacity, then ISPs will follow that mandate, = especially since that is basically an extension of the existing = marketing anyways... >> yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful = metrics Fun fact, I am currently diagnosing issues with my ISP regarding = packet-loss, one of their gateways produces ~1% packet loss in the = download direction independent of load, wrecking havoc with speedtest = results (Not even BBR will tolerate 1% random loss without a noticeable = throghuput hit) and hence resulting in months of customer complaints the = ISP did not manage to root-cause and fix... Realistically the packetloss = rate without load should be really close to 0 > Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the > reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to > replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul > becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market > pressure with speedtests show there is a problem. >=20 >> We need a marketing/lobby group. Not wispa or other individual = industry >> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well = as >> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc. i don't = know >> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) = contributing. >=20 > Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily = obvious > in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs > are performing well. >=20 > We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing > worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so > the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable > with that. >=20 > brandon > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm