From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF0A43CB37; Thu, 5 Oct 2023 14:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B121800D; Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 6EH4WIFh31ze; Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BD11800C; Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1696457946; bh=t2OA/LYomxWYSgLZ2nothjXp24La6s3jbtmms91qXzo=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Y3wGnaRIcbUVUEtqNJ9YanyYCJuq7EgCA1s5SNIUlZ4Vqa7qxTqoc1Cu/kKmqdeSh BVMecFuF0vIoA3u3eTAW/KpBiop1efmSjGUJt+zQ2QyVx+VNyu3sZHxLmh8N8HcL1V Vi6mbt2AEhjg6hp4Yim3B3qL4A/sobrgQbpRyappGYj7lyTijHcQhlH6twUNmcfFcj t35e3P5iN0O1UFfnW1oLTPS9iidyTKPFs2PdLk2MQ2YBfKmkuS6Vuex09AuxpE4fYk No9ULXmrLLFJ+kfPmB7BCgJcR72ci6wInme54KcWhMNhlfIy2zQSbz1f6YOjU4kX7I b34yJx6ZQlcuA== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCD46A; Wed, 4 Oct 2023 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Mike Conlow , Sebastian Moeller , Rpm , dan , Frantisek Borsik , libreqos , Jamal Hadi Salim , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat In-Reply-To: References: <5so3r00n-31pn-14s7-7775-08731s3s551r@ynat.uz> <7508FE73-A154-4CBA-984C-748A80C5FFEC@gmail.com> <039490DA-48A7-4AE2-B00F-AA2A260FB747@gmail.com> <3F6D16C8-530E-4066-8B6A-C0644B3C2D2C@gmx.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 27.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] net neutrality back in the news X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 18:53:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Mike Conlow via Bloat wrote: > As I read this thread and think about the coming debate in the U.S., two > things come to mind: > 1. Ofcom is considering > > a net neutrality "clarification". The first topic in the consultation is > whether ISPs should be allowed to offer "premium quality retail plans". It > doesn't specify the technical implementation, but there would be different > plans for "users who mainly stream" vs "people who use high quality > virtual reality applications". Apparently ISPs feel the existing NN rules > are not clear on whether this is allowed. > The question I'm thinking about is do we want an Internet where end user > plans are divided up this way? And if not, is a NN regulation the right > place to put those rules? Network Neutrality means that all senders are treated the same by the *ISP* The ISP doesn't get to decide to prefer some peers over others. It doesn't mean that the customer can't be given controls to determine what traffic they want, and what priority they want to give it. I think those two categories are totally bonkers. I would never want to subscribe to either service plan, because clearly the ISP thinks they can just offload bufferbloat. We've had protocols to classify traffic for decades, but ISPs couldn't be bothered to figure out how to sell that. > 2. To the point in the PS of the below email, I would agree things are > mostly working in the EU, and in the US. But things > are What's twitter? > Are NN rules the right place to address this and make sure it doesn't > happen in the US? Or is one bad actor across the EU and US the cost of > doing business and the Internet ecosystem and "market" are *mostly* solving > the issue? The EU bureaucrats are mostly lost in some fantasy land. I don't think it will end well. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFFBAEBCgAvFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmUd5NkRHG1jckBzYW5k ZWxtYW4uY2EACgkQgItw+93Q3WXDJQf/SigzslFARtRzs02zh/FFpy41UAxOIljp tKH1TT2poGIfnoRFWA6VOobM4oH4iAB1TZkkLcdJe17fQYIBQhIxaicQNuYee5tY 6CKoFtLjV1NC2zH+Dom2QmAisJSRt5AZgBJYTebr/ABiGg1BxlN+ElPqf+cFwjTk CNPqyUInLAAOc3L5RxUeAjzHQaVmQKZTmXPY+P0ecVLkKvMfW7/Q11dq8KeTjp5X 44toa9q+h5epP4E7Q3tE4U76g7MK0VhX4XgnD3D7dEcY9/Us335obArx0d5CYvxm sUbD+cJlexcDFcsb/cfVSAPP/1cTdUT6X0vepzWgntECjhi7ONjdKA== =hZMy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--