From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from fhigh-b3-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-b3-smtp.messagingengine.com [202.12.124.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AFA43B29D; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-compute-08.internal (phl-compute-08.phl.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A20F2540163; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-imap-09 ([10.202.2.99]) by phl-compute-08.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:53:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lochnair.net; h= cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1750006394; x=1750092794; bh=vQ8MdZFcnS MOot4PGKBO+6O2edVHD/PlO3TbJ0jBV4Y=; b=eNI25RMl8+Pv9uK9H4MxzBzS7k F1ol0iIg9ymTd8NT/ty7MN8RbEK3sj2ba0H9e6xs9G4sKqkzYE3cSCnfAZ0o8/04 QJm0ccJ2p74thRS/UWlipZ80hc6rvMo2FE3KhN/5rrOfakn1GpQbRsC4fvxlz+o2 lKhkP8RpPoG+Cr5y68vPe7toY++BQwxYtAbLTna9qUYCZR5FaYSplO8NfyhQ7+kE S3ljao5t3MkQ0XqZ9scDmwwTaJMTcjS8+7rWO8tJzWSrDrpHZfwOWlWrl/tgGTh9 PN07l77nuntURt6wPpCqITOBT5C0VIYxuVPBPz/O+3u4qhxnGTY/pUxdIZNw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1750006394; x=1750092794; bh=vQ8MdZFcnSMOot4PGKBO+6O2edVHD/PlO3T bJ0jBV4Y=; b=Uks2k7uSIh6riFvVBTB4UJppCATuWlmyv5rZDhbKz4SICgDGbh9 6if48MRLYmsF4TiJRCSsIcrGmNxou90LKId54uWjNu9KnTIMHuUdXA/JQJWn2Ayt FZdVQHbAUn2CwkhprHdRbed6vENI9VKqbWk6754AjcKy6HTcgbG3W/oC56msVm+F MNuXlQLZlcbLNIeR656SuwX+AsuCDbiWZnIXmMXkTWpJRHFa8CD9IzhQ/gihEaqx 4rB8oH3m7mOr09nRIroBytWfekrQH/wULZ9PG96hQqFRX4JVyW9kupfRJFp7jkGE zVnT9h11f18JMLeeiXLRYrrVjqJlEC5PtDw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugddvgedvfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivg hnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefoggffhffvvefkjghfufgtsegrtderreertdej necuhfhrohhmpedfpfhilhhsucetnhgurhgvrghsucfuvhgvvgdfuceomhgvsehlohgthh hnrghirhdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvefgtdevtedtgfeuleekfeeijefg udetleethfeiveetffdtgffffeeigedtjedunecuffhomhgrihhnpehimhhguhhrrdgtoh hmpdhlihgsrhgvqhhoshdrtghomhdpfigrvhgvfhhorhhmrdgtohhmpdgtvghrohifrhht rdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpsghufhhfvghrsghlohgrthdrnhgvthdplhhisg hrvghqohhsrdhiohdplhhinhhkvgguihhnrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhgvsehlohgthhhnrghirhdrnhgvthdpnh gspghrtghpthhtohepuddupdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgr nhhtihhsvghkrdgsohhrshhikhesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehgvghofh hfsehitghonhhirgdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehhfiholhhvvghrshhonheslhhisghr vghqohhsrdhiohdprhgtphhtthhopehrohgsvghrtheslhhisghrvghqohhsrdhiohdprh gtphhtthhopegslhhorghtqdhivghtfheslhhishhtshdrsghufhhfvghrsghlohgrthdr nhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopegslhhorghtsehlihhsthhsrdgsuhhffhgvrhgslhhorghtrd hnvghtpdhrtghpthhtoheptggrkhgvsehlihhsthhsrdgsuhhffhgvrhgslhhorghtrdhn vghtpdhrtghpthhtoheptghouggvlheslhhishhtshdrsghufhhfvghrsghlohgrthdrnh gvthdprhgtphhtthhopehlihgsrhgvqhhosheslhhishhtshdrsghufhhfvghrsghlohgr thdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i6a5b4305:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.phl.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 522003020061; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:53:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T73d355fa67b694f7 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 23:52:46 +0700 From: "Nils Andreas Svee" To: "the keyboard of geoff goodfellow" , "Frantisek Borsik" Cc: "Jeremy Austin" , "Herbert Wolverson" , libreqos , "Dave Taht" , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, bloat , "Cake List" , bloat-ietf@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Message-Id: <6684dff4-c2a1-4f41-be9a-71162f256031@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=4293ca6755f24b8a8b23a516f501e52b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 05:59:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] Announcing the LibreQoS Bufferbloat TestPlatform X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 16:53:15 -0000 --4293ca6755f24b8a8b23a516f501e52b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just tried it too: https://imgur.com/a/F2cNZd4, also getting A+ overall,= and "only" A for bidirectional. I seem to be getting a 200+ ms spike right at the beginning of the basel= ine test, which skews the results. This happened at least on a couple of tests, but after a few tries it go= t better. At least with ICMP ping separately I don't see any spikes like= that. Best Regards Nils On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, at 23:20, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Blo= at wrote: > re: *thoughts and feedback!* >=20 > your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual = Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of *A+ * >=20 > whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat test gives your= s truly a bufferbloat brade grade of *C* >=20 > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-404= 5-8e8b-ab3ab8b957c5 >=20 > #1.) Why/What's the difference? >=20 > #2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF >=20 > g >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink = wrote: >> Hello to all, >>=20 >> We're excited to announce the release of the *LibreQoS Bufferbloat Te= st* =E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed speci= fically for ISPs and network operators to deploy for their customers. >>=20 >> *Link* >> https://test.libreqos.com >>=20 >> *What Makes This Different* >>=20 >> While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this pla= tform addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provi= des both traditional testing and realistic household simulation. >>=20 >> As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What's Wron= g with Speed Tests" , traditi= onal speed tests fail to measure what users actually experience. We trie= d to address Dave's points to make a better speed test that focuses on t= he metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage scenarios. >>=20 >> *Two Complementary Test Modes* >>=20 >> *Single User Test Mode* >> =E2=80=A2 Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 do= wnload =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86=92 bidirectional) >> =E2=80=A2 Measures working latency and jitter during each phase >> =E2=80=A2 Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load incre= ases >> =E2=80=A2 Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test an= d Waveform Bufferbloat Test >>=20 >> *Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)* >>=20 >> Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traf= fic patterns: >> =E2=80=A2 Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for com= petitive gaming >> =E2=80=A2 Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams si= mulation with working latency monitoring >> =E2=80=A2 Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realist= ic streaming patterns >> =E2=80=A2 Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download,= system updates >>=20 >> Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family m= embers are online simultaneously >>=20 >> Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user = working latency analysis >>=20 >> *Why (not only) ISPs Need This* >>=20 >> *The traditional approach of sending customers to third-party speed t= est sites has limitations:* >> =E2=80=A2 No control over test methodology or server placement >> =E2=80=A2 Limited correlation with customer support tickets >> =E2=80=A2 Generic results that don't reflect real-world usage patter= ns >> =E2=80=A2 No integration with ISP operational systems >> *This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:* >> =E2=80=A2 Host their own testing infrastructure with full control >> =E2=80=A2 Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs >> =E2=80=A2 Provide customers with realistic household testing scenari= os >> =E2=80=A2 Correlate test results with network performance and custom= er complaints >>=20 >> *Open Source & Community* >>=20 >> The entire platform is open source and available here: https://github= .com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test >>=20 >> We've designed this to be: >> =E2=80=A2 Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size >> =E2=80=A2 Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology >> =E2=80=A2 Realistic in its simulation of actual household usage >> =E2=80=A2 Integrable with existing ISP operational workflows >>=20 >> *Community Feedback Requested * >> We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on: >> =E2=80=A2 Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics? >> =E2=80=A2 Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-= world impact? >> =E2=80=A2 Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage pa= tterns should we simulate? >> =E2=80=A2 ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment? >>=20 >> *Technical Discussion * >> We'd welcome discussion about: >> =E2=80=A2 Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in vir= tual household mode >> =E2=80=A2 Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, = streaming) >> =E2=80=A2 Grading methodology for latency under load in complex mult= i-user scenarios >> =E2=80=A2 Integration approaches for ISP operational systems >>=20 >> The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academi= c bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on the fou= ndational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buffer= bloat community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper buf= ferbloat testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire inter= net ecosystem. >>=20 >> *Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback! * >> Best regards, >>=20 >> The LibreQoS Team >>=20 >> *__In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >> __https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>=20 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik____ >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 ____ >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885____ >> Skype: casioa5302ca____ >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 >=20 > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com >=20 > living as The Truth is True >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >=20 --4293ca6755f24b8a8b23a516f501e52b Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just tried i= t too: https://imgur.com/a/= F2cNZd4, also getting A+ overall, and "only" A for bidirectional.

I seem to be getting a 200+ ms spike right at the= beginning of the baseline test, which skews the results.
This= happened at least on a couple of tests, but after a few tries it got be= tter. At least with ICMP ping separately I don't see any spikes like tha= t.

= Best Regards
Nils

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, at 23:20, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow = via Bloat wrote:
re: thoug= hts and feedback!

your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Singl= e User Test] & [Virtual Household Mode] both give yours truly buffer= bloat grades of A+ 

whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/buffer= bloat test gives yours truly a bufferbloat brade grade of C<= /b>

https://www.waveform.com/tools/buf= ferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8e8b-ab3ab8b957c5
=

#1.) Wh= y/What's the difference?

=
#2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF=

g=


On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik = via Starlink <starl= ink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hello to all,

We're excited to announce the re= lease of the LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test =E2=80=93 an open-source b= ufferbloat testing solution designed specifically for ISPs and network o= perators to deploy for their customers.

Link=

What Makes This= Different

While there are several bufferbl= oat testing tools available, this platform addresses a critical gap: ISP= -deployable infrastructure that provides both traditional testing and re= alistic household simulation.








Why (not only) ISPs Need This




We've designed this to be:
    <= li>Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size
  • Scientifically= meaningful in its measurement methodology
  • Realistic in its simu= lation of actual household usage
  • Integrable with existing ISP op= erational workflows

Community Feedback R= equested
We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on:
  • Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics?
    • Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world impact?=
  • Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage pattern= s should we simulate?
  • ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP = deployment?

Technical Discussion
=
We'd welcome discussion about:
  • Measurement accur= acy for working latency and jitter in virtual household mode
  • Tra= ffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming)
    • Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user scena= rios
  • Integration approaches for ISP operational systems

    • The platform represents our attempt to bridge the g= ap between academic bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, b= uilding on the foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and = the broader bufferbloat community. We believe that widespread ISP deploy= ment of proper bufferbloat testing infrastructure will ultimately benefi= t the entire internet ecosystem.

    Looking for= ward to the community's thoughts and feedback!
    Best re= gards,

    The LibreQoS Team


In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025

ht= tps://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

=

Signal, Teleg= ram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmai= l.com

_______________________________________________
<= div> Starlink mailing list


--

living as The Truth is True

_______________________= ________________________
Bloat mailing list