From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 669FA3CB41; Sun, 26 Mar 2023 06:34:18 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1679826852; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=dgZt0Hyh8l5mUmYO4mDQtLdE6mwSAmYCU2sLvtdnFWE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=D168GSrbU3aUgAU9JM19rrm2b+22dynuyfES5oiWTh99J6LMU09tbDwq6+8Zd/L/K /2Nt5D8wRGRdMYye1oF/2BzffCNk788nArIVYZK3oecv8W33Kc2OxViYzNHavYzqDs 5er6RDdjcpERFqbQfh7tbyYjNra6rXW0CxE/sjJrPsnbtc5d5DJm4RRFUgXIpSMaOe g0wJUVCF6Sc1kxGmmAgtshQ9Fx0zPWK/Km+26KpFh69V1m2rdV3xhWgliuXqtn3xi7 jWizBf5SJ6zLt1vVlJLVSYKJjew+wzRU2x7XMJlSL3EvXelwqyPP9/oggR5y87wQi3 OFZKasDoOW9TA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.0.231.0]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MOiDX-1q6XZD2mVj-00QCcO; Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:34:12 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:34:11 +0200 Cc: Rpm , dan , Frantisek Borsik , brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk, libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <005d1e7e3e1d19bce308436e46a3ec5e@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> To: rjmcmahon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9LnPRPI62It/RMf2UNlP+DPb9PQ3kHG9Tj2FQj9E+Hux0YAFQ3d 83X6MkJFiAu6FwLSCT1zWpUQpkE8dP2zKPJgZv9aAP9AP0i/eYVUcAXNPbDGY3gQglie3CI m1V5h57aXkD/aYzYLv3+LXL2TUUqiMJ5ct6SLdE26G0z3w5nrPJazoPw8OSPbagh9expiCM S4fPCdjWr/z7eMeIB3HtQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:O/fQGKp5sTg=;vN9A7nX0q+VJ7EdsLrpxE6tWjrI 5sF4sJlK0KAhKJ7jF23HS+4ifIC9KTEjSbhby4OZ1p6EElAIbTvsR0wQvkWKvppGrRQZtaojR dkEdw2RL+8Fca1CqTY3/etd7LA+cj4rENEqHUm9+pHx4euzfy/RvFZTSz4LEPKBcDxmyEi04c zm1karqiTfaYHjW/4+rJsfe42Rn5QhQIa5k0SZTZa8qFzt8InWPekXnWgB5GRUzuQ/tJHndm8 C3kGY/mdD2jDwb0VvTwCO2h976VEt+QWW5G1phkgw4GSebS05YCK0EnOPaC9Lclf3zJz/pyBn /rUHvN6w425cKgFZvQXciUF/nt4qP9SNyywTCIt0FHIEuhNW3N4aa1B55MRaCa0rGjhyGXb1d fDfhAegvccgRr6MTkZU6VLi+eSAy5Mlu73+5apxFW3BKkhIee2Z8Y6HMcODRHemc/mCK6hQag SuVAcYIhftahymwaKkjaMQrC+yVCorCLwp5vSfQ24SSW2RLFHuXRv1ZkzF+xXEq63EYvrZguo cYIrmjEFiS/bSTyT4jiDleIZeBdNjhAiO4hidexATlhmO0cMOO6MYsK1weOUH1Tu3GNmgwzZd CoNzBa+XD8eNhtMWi78nA9BnUQmADYSHHT/ilEUKD9krue2lK0CE3HBz+eXAZTt3HRzOizjtB EY5qu65CFjRdnEx+eiYFqt7lq9reVfFjxCEHLrix97CnNozhw7tDdZ1DVnalVfL8LgxbKbLgH KTS951unbt5nKwoqzS4+ioV9S9IxBEESPY1kWJ9qGS7KzFp1Sg+B1oDstOFWtqlK7LPlBnSbg lPkMTrpOgdDf4T+z9mcp4FNnvIWuE1M/gvHp0MlHuatAq+vIieWEJF1ciGTxqNu8UxU9LfyEW igZqnXB0qP4zCCiVu9mshiESjXfAsCbiRzUVx4bM3CR7ZKBf2IjMprDmDJdupWJwSm9p8syIl onod69BT0C2EPiMCJcZLFnm+hIA= Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:34:18 -0000 Hi Bob, > On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon wrote: >=20 > It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about = two years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, = colos & dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up = many of the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer = co-ops to students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high = value IoT offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) = to help them learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their = employees. >=20 > My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the = broadband provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat = isn't going to block me ;) Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the = internal wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you = pay their technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according to = your plan (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals are = aligned, if the cost of the installation is to be carried by the ISP, = they likely are motivated to the the kind of job I saw in California*. Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling = from the first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is = clearly the responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs offer = to route cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used to make = contracts with the owner that they would build the internal wiring (in = an agreed upon fashion) for the right to be sole provider of e.g. cable = TV services (with the cable fees mandatorily folded into the rent) for a = fixed multi-year period (10-15 IIRC), after that the plant would end-up = property of the building owner. Recent changes in law made the = "mandatory cable fees as part of the rent" much harder/impossible, = turning the in-house wiring back into an owner/resident problem. >=20 > The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital = communications infrastructure as life support critical. Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water = (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is = mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in = that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different = perspective.=20 Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into = communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other = critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP = fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way = to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while = using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how = Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed = essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access = lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes = in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all = my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not = very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades). > It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD. ;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka = pie-in-the-sky)? > I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve = what's needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those = systems will care for them. Similar to how the medical community works, = though imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their healths. I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from = where we are now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi = concept? > I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & = developing ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they = can actually see what's possible. So let's start to show them. Sure, having real implemented examples always helps! Regards Sebastian >=20 > Bob P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only way = to gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or multi-dweller = units this introduces the question how to stop fire using these conduits = to "jump" between levels, but I assume that is a solved problem already, = and can be squelches with throwing money in its direction. *)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of the = two story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set the = cable socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish coaxial = cable that was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that I cared, = we were using ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the old "when in = Rome..." rule, I bridged over the deteriorated in-house phone wiring by = running a 30m Cat5 cable on the outside of the building to the first = hand-over box. >=20 >> Hi Bob, >> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements = and >> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which >> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an >> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber >> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better >> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you >> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the >> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All >> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first >> line of customer retention... >> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are = willing >> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more >> expensive than the big ISPs). >> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell = them >> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so >> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good >> press of doing the "right thing" publicly. >> Good luck >> Sebastian >> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have >> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely >> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit. >>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat = wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA = board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a = critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building. >>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent = basically closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at = this for about 18 mos now. >>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that = our last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that = life support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling = can no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the = exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration = of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our = HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove = this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as = across the globe. >>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic = building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act = as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that = share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating = humans to better serve one another is hard. >>> Bob_______________________________________________ >>> Bloat mailing list >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat