From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 295703CB37; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 13:11:22 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1678813877; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=0XXrq427jM/BGJBA4OrUQVho8SkQUnf+r5IVKpCHEZc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=MzSDOHH7D5c8Mb5fyOIrs6wwz9s3SM3JCM9sKwjt7egCZXSK9KiyG2gwgqSkA68eA 090OG8OJ49BPr7jE/FieRQEHaHif3fRuILdASP3XMCV6lWjNCiq3MR0KF8vCM3Kamr nqI6dIqQm3ffigvOL4YzCHP+AnlIVdmQICaYjgiEIGfLzmIsdbarc8XPqZZ1uUrGv6 KhPh/QwGlYw+U0Zd+KcSxES8VZUmXTmhd7yLe/NtDywL6q8v1nA6Gnx41QiAJ5MadL uSseAoWYA3HSSPqwibEo9B3W9sMusVQ4pwmfVhWqldqioAwFPcsvwT+ckg6LrTzugi saHJZ3eO5J9tQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MCbEf-1pligY32oN-009fnl; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:11:17 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:11:16 +0100 Cc: Mike Puchol , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , libreqos , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> References: <83ffc0dad19e3343e49271889369cefc@rjmcmahon.com> <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> <13DE6E53-665F-4C20-BBE2-70E685421E9D@gmx.de> <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> To: Robert McMahon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:JkKXUlzB7rExFnkwm/DLXQ8ASbteTlyIZqo3vUtDAVqvAIjIA5Y vswPWF1tSjMcCANoCAJWyFAMUO75dVi1EfWmOQmWVN/2Jdu6trWMs/LPUxy27q9+UFXZkfa 9g8wFQ8sGxT+lal2CBcdNoOeIgKWHD0ssVv43n3DZp2W99M+fLuJlKRDm4fYppu8ovu+V/u bZHHjQD27yP3pm4imteXw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/prBOW/yZe8=;boD/vdDOvDhJBESM6hmxUpJEQDX 4I6VVdNNbl1TwHlEXs+wKwIhNOupuvgt1imJ5B5j0OkWiSMHbTbJruS9Rd/ZQ/HyKQmIf0PXh U7kSlBGG+z1UpARFQJQwdTRQJjFn4AJYardtFwLBKgkYcQb9szR4ah7W3BXDuilwEdBKDotaW +H/DYQ/hlHNa02PMi0R+0TMu1Dul4IPUZF+bGJ+DudFgo8MTw+mWg9xJQmh/cx0y6KXfP7FxF NYeSQ8Ly4efibNkTBOnR0MyETg+rZUWFPh+aavtbAd6zbdTvAjgjOXDNk1AjktF+qYvCGYwcT POO1G87OCNDSv4swaidYzkT1frxWA08cMNQPSbgGiiYXnNlybiFdMonnuCOj2+O69G2Z7FnYp /NF0otR/N8Qu4wFNtmSoubEIoqxdWDpqejSoRi5JH+X+E1rnUWU7p8ssSoE3TFYvnSLfVKrnm TCY1qDh0WeyDz+bqI06Vq+hSwbvaQIRRheMbdckrO+CeMBHZc3+ntF9tYR6N5gb4qoxj9SMKf pIQ5719/r0W+jNsGVc3WT0oiPW0MpVJTCedofRiMaYeUgliVo0dzMfa02orio9RATEZjeOdGm P2dZDtq8phOeuhYmIpYeYQIcNjmeKfpMzuhbFWpaDriUgD0hJZ6uD6DXuCA0Nb78JUcwl1+7G fb+l3NoG2Gup5iKR64iVF6gTLFJo80lWtNCdhbv3L0wbgBKshHeJ5G3o2VvH6peXB9vG775xg xmHScrNqgp8PIiV8h4gAPPgQjMpaTDIb4hwdnertweeof3kenia/DyPRZpnkmWzcdYBwAGO+i 278tr67BIAHg9N+rOH3RjCDJJY5vhZC8Oo2M3j/pp/J8WbuBV4pMcq2LOnvqld9l7WJx3oFN4 i7ua4GqLLClNc46NBG2ozHJxTW0Spvu1cfxWyIzsxAUzjuG9Lujvu7IQTtmZtGG+do8xHXGkC s2wC90aJoWeScUCg2I9xqnyFPtc= Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 17:11:22 -0000 Hi Bob, technically attractive, but the "charge per radio head" and :virtualize = the AP" are show stoppers for me... I like my ISP, but I have a clear = understanding that my ISPs goals and my goals are not perfectly aligned = so I would never give them control of my in house network and even less = if they start moving things into the clown^W cloud. That means running = important functions on some one else's computers, giving that some one = else effectively too much power. Regards Sebastian P.S.: The technical side you propose will also work just as well with me = in control, even though that lacks a business to make it attractive for = ISPs ;) > On Mar 14, 2023, at 18:06, Robert McMahon via Bloat = wrote: >=20 > The ISP could charge per radio head and manage the system from a FiWi = head end which they own. Virtualize the APs. Get rid of SoC complexity = and costly O&M via simplicity. Eliminate all the incremental engineering = that has gone astray, e.g. bloat and over powered APs.=20 >=20 > Bob > On Mar 14, 2023, at 9:49 AM, Robert McMahon = wrote: > Hi Mike, >=20 > I'm thinking more of fiber to the room. The last few meters are wifi = everything else is fiber.. Those radios would be a max of 20' from the = associated STA. Then at phy rates of 2.8Gb/s per spatial stream. The = common MIMO is 2x2 so each radio head or wifi transceiver supports 5.6G, = no queueing delay. Wholesale is $5 and retail $19.95 per pluggable = transceiver. Sold at Home Depot next to the irrigation aisle. 10 per = house is $199 and each room gets a dedicated 5.8G phy rate. Need more = devices in a space? Pick an RRH with more cmos radios. Also, the = antennas would be patch antenna and fill the room properly. Then plug in = an optional sensor for fire alerting. >=20 >=20 > A digression. A lot of signal processing engineers have been working = on TX beam forming. The best beam is fiber. Just do that. It even can = turn corners and goes exactly to where it's needed at very low energies. = This is similar to pvc pipes in irrigation systems. They're designed to = take water to spray heads. >=20 > The cost is the cable plant. That's labor more than materials. Similar = for irrigation, pvc is inexpensive and lasts decades. A return labor = means use future proof materials, e.g. fiber. >=20 > Bob > On Mar 14, 2023, at 4:10 AM, Mike Puchol via Rpm = wrote: > Hi Bob,=20 >=20 > You hit on a set of very valid points, which I'll complement with my = views on where the industry (the bit of it that affects WISPs) is = heading, and what I saw at the MWC in Barcelona. Love the FiWi term :-)=20= >=20 > I have seen the vendors that supply WISPs, such as Ubiquiti, Cambium, = and Mimosa, but also newer entrants such as Tarana, increase the = performance and on-paper specs of their equipment. My examples below are = centered on the African market, if you operate in Europe or the US, = where you can charge customers a higher install fee, or even charge them = a break-up fee if they don't return equipment, the economics work.=20 >=20 > Where currently a ~$500 sector radio could serve ~60 endpoints, at a = cost of ~$50 per endpoint (I use this term in place of ODU/CPE, the = antenna that you mount on the roof), and supply ~2.5 Mbps CIR per = endpoint, the evolution is now a ~$2,000+ sector radio, a $200 endpoint, = capability for ~150 endpoints per sector, and ~25 Mbps CIR per endpoint.=20= >=20 > If every customer a WISP installs represents, say, $100 CAPEX at = install time ($50 for the antenna + cabling, router, etc), and you = charge a $30 install fee, you have $70 to recover, and you recover from = the monthly contribution the customer makes. If the contribution after = OPEX is, say, $10, it takes you 7 months to recover the full install = cost. Not bad, doable even in low-income markets.=20 >=20 > Fast-forward to the next-generation version. Now, the CAPEX at install = is $250, you need to recover $220, and it will take you 22 months, which = is above the usual 18 months that investors look for.=20 >=20 > The focus, thereby, has to be the lever that has the largest effect on = the unit economics - which is the per-customer cost. I have drawn what = my ideal FiWi network would look like:=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Taking you through this - we start with a 1-port, low-cost EPON OLT = (or you could go for 2, 4, 8 ports as you add capacity). This OLT has = capacity for 64 ONUs on its single port. Instead of connecting the = typical fiber infrastructure with kilometers of cables which break, = require maintenance, etc. we insert an EPON to Ethernet converter (I = added "magic" because these don't exist AFAIK).=20 >=20 > This converter allows us to connect our $2k sector radio, and serve = the $200 endpoints (ODUs) over wireless point-to-multipoint up to 10km = away. Each ODU then has a reverse converter, which gives us EPON again.=20= >=20 > Once we are back on EPON, we can insert splitters, for example, = pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes. Every customer install now = involves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized 2-core drop cable, and a = $20 EPON ONU. =20 >=20 > Using this deployment method, we could connect up to 16 customers to a = single $200 endpoint, so the enpoint CAPEX per customer is now $12.5. = Add the ONU, cable, etc. and we have a per-install CAPEX of $82.5 = (assuming the same $50 of extras we had before), and an even shorter = break-even. In addition, as the endpoints support higher capacity, we = can provision at least the same, if not more, capacity per customer.=20 >=20 > Other advantages: the $200 ODU is no longer customer equipment and = CAPEX, but network equipment, and as such, can operate under a longer = break-even timeline, and be financed by infrastructure PE funds, for = example. As a result, churn has a much lower financial impact on the = operator.=20 >=20 > The main reason why this wouldn't work today is that EPON, as we know, = is synchronous, and requires the OLT to orchestrate the amount of time = each ONU can transmit, and when. Having wireless hops and media = conversions will introduce latencies which can break down the = communications (e.g. one ONU may transmit, get delayed on the radio = link, and end up overlapping another ONU that transmitted on the next = slot). Thus, either the "magic" box needs to account for this, or an new = hybrid EPON-wireless protocol developed.=20 >=20 > My main point here: the industry is moving away from the unconnected. = All the claims I heard and saw at MWC about "connecting the unconnected" = had zero resonance with the financial drivers that the unconnected = really operate under, on top of IT literacy, digital skills, devices, = power...=20 >=20 > Best,=20 >=20 > Mike > On Mar 14, 2023 at 05:27 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink = , wrote:=20 >> To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi.=20 >>=20 >> Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS=20 >> Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building=20 >> connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio head=20= >> (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for = things=20 >> like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber = connection=20 >> via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power=20 >> imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors.=20 >>=20 >> Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed)=20 >>=20 >> o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a=20= >> significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really.=20 >> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has = the=20 >> effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of=20= >> frequency spectrum that can be made available.=20 >> o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly=20= >> longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the=20= >> many.=20 >> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio=20 >> o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to=20= >> noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal.=20= >> o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted=20 >> forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent=20= >> lost opportunity.=20 >>=20 >> And on waveguides:=20 >>=20 >> o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber,=20 >> independent of modulation"=20 >> o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency = dependent. At=20 >> 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch."=20 >> o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with = the=20 >> square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of = the=20 >> electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law"=20= >>=20 >> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE=20= >> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL could = be=20 >> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP in = a=20 >> data center.=20 >>=20 >> This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared=20= >> queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging = 10dB=20 >> in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical = design.=20 >> Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an=20= >> irrigation system.)=20 >>=20 >> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building = improves.=20 >> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over long=20= >> term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to=20 >> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value remains=20= >> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet.=20= >> We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" = over=20 >> years.=20 >>=20 >> But the asset is there.=20 >>=20 >> How do we do this?=20 >>=20 >> Bob=20 >> _______________________________________________=20 >> Starlink mailing list=20 >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net=20 >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat