From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D45EB3B29E; Thu, 8 Dec 2022 05:28:47 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1670495326; bh=iCN0qnQpBPxphR44cozEh/XK5wvR+joLeQFfM3mWG4E=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:Subject:References:To:Date; b=AKm0+mJH9nod8XvZxtJ259QBbI3GYeXNazqAqbuF5lOcbfYtv8i3V2bvuEAyMfD45 wAROS+4uvS8w1+SlP878vcDBJQYGMm0L1ll6mjSWKxmUlaYps0CGdEnnaE7tC3uwUP 1rJLxpjiHkoYg3IgA1IBJUUiZI8DZCagY3tsbyzYOedZJn6bF2t15f6w581u1Jt7Ew 7KemW3e7zMffCHP1HXyZxaWdTmFjTgF0hAdy1gF+ERV2Q5xF7GJ8oBd/D2UL5V/65x Bin/b45Gh8yJ/M4QrA/d9g29zM4GwFtuCNFadSVnuLXuuwaQ9mdinZqnH8DpBJ713J FVOvnRYSPBoeQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mlw7f-1ocw5F0HQJ-00j1oy; Thu, 08 Dec 2022 11:28:46 +0100 From: Sebastian Moeller Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Message-Id: <7E221EFE-5094-437E-811A-B98AF60266A8@gmx.de> References: <9D0AC7EA-5EF2-45CE-9455-6A9B0374189E@gmx.de> To: rjmcmahon via Make-wifi-fast , =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Rpm , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 11:28:45 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8t+SFzZ4HC4G9x6LZeFS99S6V0QBdLLUqz0s16MWUIhHGsxoXrL KmPXB5HAsJkkVYh/oXlX4/hm7650IJZTXsZBlw+HcBXyb87nY94G0AY+TnfQvM8Sdah3s5/ G4aB5mPs2Nvupu/g+PIJlXDM/t8JPfu3l4fxWf5829nDuAaniW3INGfPZp5eBu1RJODKX3e ZYTCr9HptFNaEc4/cqcVA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:Devl3AgGZ/U=;HKnwSOlMphoIbLor86zm+CE9Ur9 yJrxs/gywKP8zF9LGyv+vF0SZNKUQ/Fh4sruGLw3HP5rNBVvNWWRhREaOs6ll9LaYQHnieJac eMP/OGkUbnlsT8MzZS5bebl3WDRUWYJQAUAkyhG23rI7rU6POcKHC4B/fh2UQ2oCIQQUgsHI6 jBuKtqEwvtl2edNV77K6mk2MB4Lfs5cUiEthE3Vc/+ClSFX9N7LG5IWCxx3RatT3EisuFQzhG V4L3CRa7277vu2RxMRAhe9S6JtMhLCJJn6jMfCo9DqP1d177oHeWelk5v3syBpfnzlkTCyOd1 aUsNpdsEpy0KgNi8W4c+bFqZMhvzIeVfU5yZo9Xa8wuW7vAsfkXs5tQZv7UgPTYWtM4/ALYUk kUSf9jnwv3iYrpsLZERkq/Cco0nvUwakr7589qMVC3Z0gzNdZ7S7UbE4OqD4warl7aaFhPY52 Vtfs1qodPBaipEGw2Z4qe4s0rjij3u9XxhR9JmDKmMHxMydmiKsjeG4D5fX9iDh16xYw26fS3 cVbDikGCXvOAgnP/0tXplREzeTOoMgUOQURF9Rg0Pa06kq3XTBz7+M5cuO3NALOdb05qnKnmt YSxsU2Ksd4WDIfy5M2VrUyqbwnKwDuf6P1Y47ceW2vVLzEtp0t4A5Tzxv8ipieOWoK27ZsctM pMF2sv7EX2UDvZzQDW/weSEnzxpkEyf7BakMCH2OxvI8kgtzuJAvm11+RdjZiqzmPkzyU4J9s chgGX4ogu/3gj9BavnBfIewbfH9tBL3TLlz1gwDuKMcTfsQI/A4Pa/hLsqMJe9F7+4S10a9b5 u0gVpWbM8Mt8VFdyZYIzDlGyXPzrXZI/s92kDWzSB/K2fWeFwRq1YgFbdfNcuYaz9ekDvqmo/ NOQlcKnSMOl47bA0h/29kGf/q+M66hCRMFASFlVMXOFhA/dxi1eHNxTvJ0q1OMMVaiBpdoWXq 6gu2dJwYhCpAfNXEop/wSoj/o4bzDxjivEm2qlqPuVdgefmDgqrJhO0woAV4tUHHZHcv4A== Subject: [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast 2016 & crusader X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 10:28:48 -0000 Mail mail provider unhelpfully labelled my post as SPAM, and apparently = all receivers rejected to receive my "SPAM" Hence I try forwarding a slightly edited version of my response below, = hoping not to trigger GMX's SPAM detection again. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Sebastian Moeller > Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [Rpm] make-wifi-fast 2016 & crusader > Date: December 8, 2022 at 11:15:12 GMT+1 > To: rjmcmahon > Cc: rjmcmahon via Make-wifi-fast = , Dave T=C3=A4ht = , Rpm , libreqos = , Dave Taht via Starlink = , bloat >=20 > Hi Bob, >=20 > thanks for the detailed response. >=20 >=20 >> On Dec 7, 2022, at 20:28, rjmcmahon wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Sebastian, >>=20 >> Per Aristotle: "That which is common to the greatest number gets the = least amount of care. Men pay most attention to what is their own: they = care less for what is common." >>=20 >> I think a challenge for many of us providing open source tooling is = the lack of resource support to supply goods for all. Both the iperf 2 = and iperf 3 teams are under-resourced so we try not to duplicate each = other too much except for where that duplication adds value (e.g. having = two independently written socket measurement tools.) The iperf 3 team = has provided public servers, I think at their costs. >=20 > [SM] I should probably clarify my position, I was not trying to = argue that you (or your employer) should operate public iperf2 servers, = but that the availability of such servers probably is what made iperf3 = the most popular of the iperf2/iperf3/netperf triple. I did not realize = that the iperf3 team operates some of the public servers, as I have = already seen ISPs (see e.g. hxxps://speedtest.wtnet.de) that offer = iperf3 as mean for their existing users to run speedtest via iperf3. So = my argument should gone more along the lines of, "to make iperf2 as = popular as it deserves to be some publicity and available servers will = help a lot". And actually having servers operated by other parties than = the toll maker is an added "vote of confidence". >=20 >=20 >> I've been holding off on iperf 2 public servers until I found an = additional value add and a way to pay for them. >=20 > [SM] Understood, and I formulated inartfully, implying you = should host iperf2 servers; that was not my intent. >=20 >> Much of the iperf 2 work has been around one way delay (OWD) or = latency. Doing this well requires GPS clock sync on both the data center = servers and the end host devices. I checked into this a few years ago = and found that this level of clock sync wasn't available via rented = servers (e.g. linode or Hurricane Electric) so I put on hold any further = investigation of public servers for iperf 2 as being redundant with = iperf 3. Those that need true e2e latency (vs RTTs) have to build their = own so-to-speak. >=20 > [SM] Yepp, except for congestion detection all that is really = required is sufficiently stable clocks, as the delay differences between = idle and loaded tests are quite informative and offering OWDs allows to = pinpoint the direction of congestion. >=20 >> I know of two nonprofit measurement labs being mlabs and ripe (there = may be more) that could take an interest but neither has: >>=20 >> hxxps://www.ripe.net/ >> hxxps://www.measurementlab.net/ >=20 > [SM] I think ripe especially their ATLAS network is somewhat = "sensitive" about throughput tests, as quite some nodes likely are = operated by enthusiasts in their leaf networks that are not well suited = as generic speedtest servers... (however that would allow great studies = of achievable throughput comparing different ASs). >=20 >> There could be a market opportunity for somebody to build a = measurement system in the cloud that supported any generic sensors and = could signal anomalies. Then one could connect iperf 2 public servers to = that as an offering. >>=20 >> Note: Some GPS atomic clock options for RPi: >> = hxxps://store.uputronics.com/index.php?route=3Dproduct/product&product_id=3D= 81 >> = hxxps://store.timebeat.app/products/gnss-raspberry-pi-cm4-module?variant=3D= 41934772764843 >=20 > [SM] I followed your lead several moths ago, and have an = GPS-disciplined NTP server in my homenetwork already, so I am prepared = for true OWD measurements ;) >=20 >=20 >> Also needed is the latest iperf 2 on an openwrt router. >=20 > [SM] That will work well for the low throughput test, but I = often see that routers that are fully capable of routing X Mbps get into = issues when trying to source and/or sink the same X Mbps, so it becomes = essential to monitor router "load" while running tests (something that = is also still on the TODO list for cake-autorate, we should throttle our = shapers if the traffic load exceeds a router's capability to schedule = CPU slots timely to the shaper qdiscs). >=20 >> Better may be to have that router also run ptp4l or equivalent and = behave as a PTP grandmaster. >=20 > [SM] In OpenWrt it is simple to enable an NTP server would it = not be enough to feed that server via PTP? Otherwise the router would = need to include the high precision clock. And as much as I love my GPS = disciplined NTP server, I have reservations whether I think it a great = idea to make GPS receivers a default router feature (I think this will = play into the hand of location restricted internet access/offering which = could easily be abused* and unlike geoIP it might be tempting to use = that information at court as well). >=20 >> Unfortunately, my day job requires me to focus on "shareholder = interests" and, in that context, it's very difficult to provide public = goods that are nonrivalrous and nonexcludable. = hxxps://tinyurl.com/mr63p52k >>=20 >> Finally, we all have to deal with "why we sleep" in order to be most = productive (despite what Mr. Musk thinks.) >>=20 >> hxxps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep >>=20 >> and there are only so many "awake hours" for us "non-exceptional" = engineers ;-) (A joke, everybody has value by my book.) >=20 > [SM] ;) the time-limit also applies for non-engineers as well = (independent of exceptions). Fun fact, for most measures most of us fall = into the non-exceptional category anyway. >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 > P.S.: Getting iperf2 into OpenWrt and offering a howto how to make = that available to the outside would be great (as would easy recipes how = to install iperf2 on containers or VPS). I admit however that I did not = do my research here and both howto and recipes might already exist. And = again this is not intended as something for your "plate"/TODO list just = as relative simple/low cost/low effort ways to make iperf2 more salient = generally. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Bob