From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 353B13CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 780591EEE8; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:49:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 780591EEE8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1678902597; bh=nQkYpB0xpGEUA7MVdj8WS6mVYuIvPkgAITrRuDP28tg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=odblwczPrnDhXJo7LZ3zZv44fwFsoU6XZFZf2bkrlSeWfB5JWpZMB4elK6+HZO9O2 EQTArLMacCVdEc3iRbdKSSarngYEGTkLtL5w301yxkYU077GsHnpzcemB3VdXJVG4e 2+rCeGPFGJiCcxsUbLWiJiI0meqLSbNzarPnctAI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:49:57 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: Bruce Perens , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , dan , libreqos , bloat In-Reply-To: References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> Message-ID: <7d7d508f127db23c1904f7f08946d674@rjmcmahon.com> X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Rpm] [Bloat] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: revolutions per minute - a new metric for measuring responsiveness List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:49:58 -0000 Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to never need to use it. Bob > Hi Bob, > > I like your design sketch and the ideas behind it. > > >> On Mar 15, 2023, at 18:32, rjmcmahon via Bloat >> wrote: >> >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded >> to a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by >> installers per those chanspecs. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > > Maybe design this to be dual band from the start to avoid the up/down > "tdm" approach we currently use? Better yet go full duplex, which > might be an option if we get enough radios that not much > beamforming/MIMO is necessary? I obviously lack deep enough > understanf=dingwhether this makes any sense or is just buzzword bingo > from my side :) > > >> >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless >> isn't high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in >> a dog park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from >> block to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation >> systems, etc. >> >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that >> and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the >> RRH too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better >> than AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. >> Congestion? Add a zero (or multiple by 10) > > I am weary of this kind of trust in continuous exponential growth... > at one point we reach a limit and will need to figure out how to deal > with congestion again, so why drop this capability on the way? The > nice thing about AQMs is if there is no queue build up these basically > do nothing... (might need some design changes to optimize an AQM to be > as cheap as possible for the uncontended case)... > >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero >> engineering resources assigned. >> >> Bob >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon >>> wrote: >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has >>>> to halt. >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >>> room. >> _______________________________________________ >> Bloat mailing list >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat